Three out on pitch that just made it to plate!?!

[oneonone]

I was getting ready to call a LL majors game this past weakend and was catching the tail end of a LL junior/majors game (9-10 year olds). Bases were loaded and no outs. The pitcher loses her grip on the ball and releases way early and drives the ball into the groung...it is slowing creeping its way to home plate. Runners on all three bases take off, no movement from any defense. They are all just waiting for the ball to reach the catcher. R1 heads back to third because she must think that the catcher will now be able to just pick up the ball and tag her. PU kills the action. Calls time. Walks back and picks up his rule book and is franticlly looking for something. I'm dressed out and he calls me over and asks if I just saw the same thing and would I have three outs because each runner left their bases before the pitch reached the batter/plate. I say yes and the half inning ends. Only in LL are you treated to rare events like these.

[wadeintothem]

Thats a pretty lame rule (3 outs on 1 presumably immediate DB play) .... if thats really the rule.

[U of M Sam]

How can you have 3 outs when all three runners left early? One of them had to leave early first.
I say you have "Dead Ball" and one runner out (whom ever left early first) no pitch and all other runners return to last base occupied at TOP.
Please site LL rule that states you can have three out as is described in the OP.
Also, where did the umpire "have" his rule book at the field during the game?

[azbigdawg]

I sincerely hope the original post is a joke...because even if it isnt..... it still IS...... Kill the play, bang ONE runner...put them back on base.... and read your rulebook BETWEEN games...

[Mountaineer]

I'm not sure if I can list all the problems here. First, 9-10 yo is called minors as opposed to junior/majors. Second, U of M is correct in that the first one to leave early causes a DB so the first one to leave is out - one out only. Third, unless you are the league UIC or a district staff member I don't think you should add anything to the game that you are not umpiring.

[oneonone]

7.08 - ANY runner is out when

(a) (5) the runner fails to keep contact with the base to which that runnner is entitled until the ball has been batted or reaches the batter.

The PU had his book in his duffle just outside the gate of the visitors dug out. I don't know why its location is important U of M but that is where it was.?

He only asked me if I knew of any rule that limits the numbers of players that this could apply to. I may have be mistaken to talk to him. Perhaps should have hung him out like so many bad fathers that say "you want an answer...LOOK it up yourself." My mistake, it won't happen again. No UIC at the feilds. I can't answer as to why he asked me. I apologize to you all for not have know better. I didn't realize unitl now that that is somekind of violation or rule.

I tried to look up the call myself later that night because i figured oneday I might run into something like R1 on second and R2 on first both leaving early. And I can't find anything in the LL rule book that addresses when this happens. You all are replying very confidently that there is a rule that limits 7.08 (a)(5) from "Any runner" to the "first runner" that fails to keep contact with the base. Please post.

So to answer U of M as best as I can. I don't see in rule 7.08 (a)(5) anywhere that says you can ring up three outs...or even two outs...but I don't see where it says anything about only one either. I do see where it says "Any" runner. Probably my bad reasearch. You clearly know right where I should be looking. Please post.

Mountaineer..Sorry about the Junior/Major title error, I stand corrected...Around Here in southwest Michigan District 15, there is a division between the SB Minors and SB Majors. Its called SB Little Majors. Here is a link to one of the league teams web site that lists these divisions that play in District 15.

http://eteamz.active.com/mattawanll/teams/

Mountaineer..."the first one to leave early causes a DB so the first one to leave is out - one out only" This is a helpful point of clarification. I've been going over section 5.0 that covers when a ball becomes dead or a DB and I wasn't able to find this. What section did you pull this from? I know its a DB if a runner leaves early, when two leave its still a dead ball. And what if it is not clear which runner left early, does the rule you are referencing direct which one is out? Lead runner or trailing? If I am called out by a DC that wants to know why since the runner on second and the runner on first both left early, why aren't they both out. I can't just say "because Mountaineer says so". Is it in the case book? Remember, I'm only looking in the LL rules. Not ASA or NFHS. I appreciate your genuine assistance in posting the rule or case.

Hey IRISH if your out there?...I always appreciate your direction as you present it...from the book. Not just because you say so. Your case and rule citation is invaluable.

If you tell a person they are wrong...they may likely repeat the behavior. If you teach them why what they did was wrong you have likely saved them future embarassement.

Finally...I was only trying to share something that I witnessed and thought was an odd situtaion. I usually enjoy reading all the posts on this forum. Be it a unique play or the 38th post about obstruction. I've learned a great deal from many of the members here. Its always very helpful when someone posts a rule by number that illustrates what the correct call should have been. That is rock solid help. Many often post what thier considered opinion is on the play and why they feel it was not the right call but sometimes a strongly presented opinion from a poster would mean more with the rule listed with it. Clearly it is easier for some to judge than educate. Are we not here to help each other learn and evolve. Or is this just an opportunity for some to impose their superiority on us "life long learners". Some of you will undoubtably forget more in your lifetime than I will every learn. I think I will continue to ask the questions and try to improve my game. If some here think I will learn faster by flaming me than flame on. I'm very forgiving.

[wadeintothem]

How it works is:

You have a immediate DB infraction when ANY runner leaves early..

So, from that point, anyone else who leaves left during a dead ball period (the ball is not in play, it is dead due to leaving early)

So the other 2 can't be out, they are leaving the base when "dead ball" is in effect (even if not called immediately, leaving early is a DB call - the fact its not called the moment it is in effect is not relevant to rule application)

I can't help you researching LL rules on this, but I hope this clarifies the basis to understanding multiple infractions committed on after an immediate DB call (even if not made).

I doubt LL is any different, especially with a baseball like basis for their rules - but I can't say for sure as to that.

I would HIGHLY doubt you get 3 outs..

You can get the first one.. or if unknown/pretty much simultaneous, just take closest to home.

[Mountaineer]

I didn't mean to flame - honest - I don't like it when that happens on here. Stick around long enough and you will indeed get flamed! LOL - I apologize.

I think if you look at the verbage of the rule it says any RUNNER. In most (or maybe all - I didn't re-read the book) cases, if it includes all runners the book states RUNNER(S) or says ALL RUNNERS. In that age group, the kids are followers - one had to be first. Bang that one and return the rest to their bases. Also, if you look at the penalty it states that a DB is called a no pitch declared and THE RUNNER is out.

I think people wondering where his rule book was located is because most if not all on here wouldn't dream of taking a rule book on the field with them.

Because Mountaineer said so . . . I do like your thinking!!!

[mcrowder]

[Quote = onebyone]I know its a DB if a runner leaves early, when two leave its still a dead ball.[/quote]Even if you don't call it immediately, it is a dead ball the moment the FIRST runner leaves a base. Two can't leave - the ball is dead already before the 2nd steps off. As to which one to call out - that's why we get paid ... to make a judgement. Which runner left their base first - that is the one that is out. Not the trailing runner, leading runner, or runner on a particular base ... the one that stepped off first.

[Skahtboi]

oneonone:

If the rule book states that a runner leaving early is a dead ball and then an out for the penalty, then the guidance you have been given by the others here is correct. You can only have one out on the first runner to leave early. It doesn't matter what the other two did. The ball is dead immediately, and the other two runners are returned to their base. Now, I say this as it applies to all the codes that I know. I have never done LL, and don't know the verbiage they use.

[mick]

Non-tourney LL Softball 9-10.
It is merely an Oops!.
Runners return.
Everyone laughs.
Pitcher tries again.

[Az.Ump]

"You all are replying very confidently that there is a rule that limits 7.08 (a)(5) from "Any runner" to the "first runner" that fails to keep contact with the base. Please post.

So to answer U of M as best as I can. I don't see in rule 7.08 (a)(5) anywhere that says you can ring up three outs...or even two outs...but I don't see where it says anything about only one either. I do see where it says "Any" runner. Probably my bad research. You clearly know right where I should be looking. Please post."

Try reading the next sentence in the rule book.

PENALTY: The ball is dead. "No Pitch" is declared, and the runner is out. Eight (8) foot radius circle must be properly marked.

1) Once the first runner steps off the ball is dead and the action's of the others never occur.

2) There are no ties. That why we get the big bucks.

Paul