Unusual dropped third strike

[justmom]

This was the weirdest one I'd seen in quite a while. Two outs, no base runners, count is one ball/two strikes. Batter check-swings at next pitch. PU rules pitch a ball. Defense appeals to FU who rules it a swing, strike three. Defense heads toward dugout, batter walks maybe a third of the way back to her dugout when offensive coach yells at batter to run to first, because the ruled-on-appeal third strike was dropped. Runner runs to first (weaving through the mob of defensive leaving the field). Runner reaches first base while the defense was still trying to figure out what was happening. Defense was protesting loudly that "she can't do that". Runner is ruled safe at first on the dropped third strike. Should she have been out for walking away? (On the other hand, the defense should have known they were appealing for a third strike on a dropped pitch). So...how far do you let the batter walk away before you call them out?

[wadeintothem]

They gotta enter the dugout/db territory.

[Bluefoot]

Since the defense is not trying to make a play on the BR, the BR can choose any path they want to get to 1B, as long as they do not enter the team area (dugout).

Shame on the F2 for not thinking to tag the BR at the time of appeal.

[justmom]

If a defensive player would have picked up the ball and made the throw to first base, would there have been obstruction? The runner had to dodge multiple defensive players on her way to the base, and runner was actually in the base-line/runner's lane for about the last half of the way to first. I know...its a big "what if", but I got to wondering about it.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by justmom

If a defensive player would have picked up the ball and made the throw to first base, would there have been obstruction? The runner had to dodge multiple defensive players on her way to the base, and runner was actually in the base-line/runner's lane for about the last half of the way to first. I know...its a big "what if", but I got to wondering about it.

From your post, it sounds like there could very possibly have been OBS. Did any of the defenders leaving the field cause the BR to deviate in her path to the base?

[mcrowder]

Was this game in NW Dallas? I had EXACTLY this recently (last Tuesday, I believe ... the last dry day in Texas forever apparently), and yes, I did have my arm out on the obstruction.

[justmom]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Was this game in NW Dallas? I had EXACTLY this recently (last Tuesday, I believe ... the last dry day in Texas forever apparently), and yes, I did have my arm out on the obstruction.

No, it wasn't anywhere near Texas.

[justmom]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

From your post, it sounds like there could very possibly have been OBS. Did any of the defenders leaving the field cause the BR to deviate in her path to the base?

Oh, yeah...she was doing some pretty good footwork to keep from running into the mob of defense that was heading for the first-base side dugout.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by justmom

No, it wasn't anywhere near Texas.

Well.. if it didnt happen in Texas, it didnt really happen..

Just ask mcrowder

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by justmom

. . . . count is one ball/two strikes. Batter check-swings at next pitch. PU rules pitch a ball. Defense appeals to FU who rules it a swing, strike three.

This is one of my favorite pet peeves and most of my fellow umpires disagree with me, but I am not going to honor an appear on an uncaught ball that can be turned into a 3rd strike.

If I decided that the batter did not swing, than I am calling an emphatic "BALL!" - leaving no doubt that is what I want called. I will not honor a request to "appeal." I state that the defense has gained an unfair advantage in that the catcher has time to retrieve the ball and gets an easy (undeserved) out when the call is reversed - and my ball call has held the batter at the plate.

Afterall - it was the defense that make the mistake - and they should not be rewarded with an easy out.

WMB

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

This is one of my favorite pet peeves and most of my fellow umpires disagree with me, but I am not going to honor an appear on an uncaught ball that can be turned into a 3rd strike.

If I decided that the batter did not swing, than I am calling an emphatic "BALL!" - leaving no doubt that is what I want called. I will not honor a request to "appeal." I state that the defense has gained an unfair advantage in that the catcher has time to retrieve the ball and gets an easy (undeserved) out when the call is reversed - and my ball call has held the batter at the plate.

Afterall - it was the defense that make the mistake - and they should not be rewarded with an easy out.

WMB

I'm comfortable with the philosophy, just don't know if there is rule support, so without it, I guess I'm part of " most of my fellow umpires".

[CelticNHBlue]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Afterall - it was the defense that make the mistake - and they should not be rewarded with an easy out.
WMB

I know this has been discussed at length in the past so forgive me for adding in this thread, but this part of your argument doesn't seem too accurate to me. Yes, the defense erred on this play, but also, didn't the offense? I mean, its hard to qualify an offensive error, but I could consider this to be one.

Also, typically when there is a check swing, coaches are all over an appeal and very vocal about it, so a smart batter will react to this potential and run anyway, not that they do beyond rarely. I guess I just don't see the defense gaining a terrible advantage because the offense has the opportunity to run, even if just to be safe, but they choose not to.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I have struggled to understand that thought process before, too. While I have great respect for WMB, and despite the fact we (respectfully) disagree on several points, I just don't get that one.

The way I see it, he is saying that failing to catch the third strike (if it was one) negates the right of the defense to have it called properly. And/or that since the PU didn't call it immediately, the defense is no longer entitled to have it ruled on correctly.

The way I see it is that the batter (possibly) made a swing that should be called a third strike. That swing put the batter in jeopardy; not the catcher failing to catch the ball, nor the PU concentrating on the pitch location over the bat movement. The rules provide a remedy for both; the catcher failing to catch the ball (put the BR out) and the PU possibly not recognizing a swing (a checked swing appeal). No rule or written umpire mechanic supercedes the remedies allowed.

I just don't get it. But I respect his right to believe it.

[WestMichBlue]

What is so hard to understand that the umpire put the batter in jeporday? The PU said "BALL!" The batter has not struck out; she has no reason to move, even though the ball is rolling away.

You guys sit at a keyboard and conjure all these scenarios about what a 16 y.o. girl is supposed to run through her mind. She is required, by you, to consider the possibility that another umpire may overrule the PU who did not call her out, and maybe she should run to 1B just to protect herself - even though the PU said that she did not strike out.

Because some girl does not think this through as specified, you will allow the defense to get a cheap out. Cheap, because you, the PLATE UMPIRE, in essence, told her to stay at the batter's box.

My way is easy. Don't honor the appeal. The explanation (to the coach) is simple (and understandable). The ball game hasn't changed. We just have another ball on the batter; she is still up, the pitcher and catcher can still pitch and catch again, runners can still run - play on!

WMB

BTW - those that say there is no rule to support my position; I say there is no rule forcing me to go to my partner on a checked swing (or any other call that a coach is challenging). It is always my option to stay with my call. In this unique situation, I will stay with my original call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

BTW - those that say there is no rule to support my position; I say there is no rule forcing me to go to my partner on a checked swing (or any other call that a coach is challenging). It is always my option to stay with my call. In this unique situation, I will stay with my original call.

Then we can assume, since I haven't seen a sanctioning body yet mentioned, you do not call NCAA ball. I believe an umpire is required to check when asked in that game.

BTW, ASA does not discourage an umpire to go for help, and the manual actually directs the umpire to call a ball and go to you partner, if unsure.

I must have missed the part in the manual about "leaving no doubt that is what I want called" instead of getting it right.

There is no doubt that a check swing on a decisive pitch can be a touchy situation, but that's life. You cannot satisfy everyone, all the time, so you just as well get it right.

Okay, the catcher didn't hold the ball. Well, the batter is just as guilty of causing this fustercluck, so why would they receive extra protection?

Under WMB's scenario, instead of being stubborn about going for help, you just as well kill the ball, then ask for help. Then after you award the batter 1B and throw out the defenses' coach, you can calmly clean the plate, return to your position and return the ball to live status.