Missed base appeals

[Dakota]

Partially stolen from the NFHS board, but turned into a more general (and interenting, I think) question.

R1 on first base. B2 hits long high fly ball to center. R1 leaves first base before ball is touched. Ball is caught. R1 advances to between 2B and 3B. 3B coach tells R1 to get back on first base. R1 reaches 1B before the ball, which was thrown to F3 on an attempted live ball appeal. With R1 standing on first base, defense requests and is granted TIME. List all appeals could be successfully made by the defense in these situations:

a) R1 misses 2B on the advance but touches on the return
b) R1 misses 2B in both directions
c) R1 touches 2B on the advance but misses on the return

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Partially stolen from the NFHS board, but turned into a more general (and interenting, I think) question.

R1 on first base. B2 hits long high fly ball to center. R1 leaves first base before ball is touched. Ball is caught. R1 advances to between 2B and 3B. 3B coach tells R1 to get back on first base. R1 reaches 1B before the ball, which was thrown to F3 on an attempted live ball appeal. With R1 standing on first base, defense requests and is granted TIME. List all appeals could be successfully made by the defense in these situations:

a) R1 misses 2B on the advance but touches on the return
b) R1 misses 2B in both directions
c) R1 touches 2B on the advance but misses on the return

Assuming the "all" must come from the list offered and deals exclusively with 2B.

a) no
b) yes
c) yes

[mcrowder]

Yeah - I don't understand the question either. But if this was supposed to be multiple choice, I choose B and C as well.

[greymule]

I would agree with those 3 answers for every code I know.

A wrinkle regarding missed bases is that ASA neither recognizes "last time by" (runner misses 2B on the return, retouches 1B, and then makes it safely to 2B) nor differentiates between a "regular" miss and a "gross miss" (more than a body length).

I don't know whether Fed parallels ASA in those areas or not.

[bigsig]

Wouldn't it be true that since the runner did return to 1b, and ahead of the throw,that the only appeal would be missing 2nd on the return? I don't think B would be a yes since she returned to 1b safely.

[Dakota]

Sorry about the confusing question, but I was looking for something like

a) one appeal could be recognzed - missing the base on the advance
b) two appeals could be recognized - missing on advance and retreat
c) one appeal could be recognized - missing on the retreat

(not saying those would be my answers)

There is a confusing discussion on the NFHS board about situation b), BTW, if anyone wants to check it out.

[jimpiano]

Rule 8, Section 7 says the runner is out:

G. When the runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases in regular or reverse order and .......is properly appealed.

A literal interpretation means one appeal in A could be granted,
two appeals in B and one appeal in C.

[greymule]

All that matters is whether the runner missed on the retreat.

The appeal is the runner missing 2B.

In (a) the runner corrected his error by touching on the retreat. In (b) and (c) he missed on the retreat and he's out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Rule 8, Section 7 says the runner is out:

G. When the runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases in regular or reverse order and .......is properly appealed.

A literal interpretation means one appeal in A could be granted,
two appeals in B and one appeal in C.

How do you know? Please cite the ASA rule which indicates the proper order in which the bases must be touched.

In rule five, it mentions what bases must be touched to score a run, but does not demand a particular order.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Sorry about the confusing question, but I was looking for something like

a) one appeal could be recognzed - missing the base on the advance
b) two appeals could be recognized - missing on advance and retreat
c) one appeal could be recognized - missing on the retreat

(not saying those would be my answers)

There is a confusing discussion on the NFHS board about situation b), BTW, if anyone wants to check it out.

That's because people are trying to "out think" the rules. It isn't that difficult when you walk through the scenarios offered.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by bigsig

Wouldn't it be true that since the runner did return to 1b, and ahead of the throw,that the only appeal would be missing 2nd on the return? I don't think B would be a yes since she returned to 1b safely.

My understanding is that if a runner passes a base and fails to touch it, they are considered to have touched it unless it is appealed. If the appeal is made, the runner is out.

I understand your logic but I think the rules don't agee.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How do you know? Please cite the ASA rule which indicates the proper order in which the bases must be touched.

In rule five, it mentions what bases must be touched to score a run, but does not demand a particular order.

I repeat, rule 8-7,G..... the runner is out .....when the runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases [B]in regular or reverse order[B] and......is properly appealed.

In each of the options in the question, the runner missed a base, either in regular or reverse order, and, according to the rule, as written, is subject to a successful appeal.

Rule 5 gives the order the bases must be touched for a runner to score a run, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, home.

[greymule]

is subject to a successful appeal.

"Unless he corrects his mistake" is so obvious it does not have to be written.

Batter hits a ball over the outfield and touches, in order, home, 2B, 1B, 3B, and claims he scored a run. I think even the Ninth Circuit would choke on that one.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by greymule

is subject to a successful appeal.

"Unless he corrects his mistake" is so obvious it does not have to be written.

Batter hits a ball over the outfield and touches, in order, home, 2B, 1B, 3B, and claims he scored a run. I think even the Ninth Circuit would choke on that one.

I am simply following earlier advice on this board that asked for the rule(s) as written to be cited.

It may be logical to assume that a runner missing a base and then touching it when returning, or missing it both ways, could not be subject to a successful appeal.....but where is that interpretation written?

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

I repeat, rule 8-7,G..... the runner is out .....when the runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases [B]in regular or reverse order[B] and......is properly appealed.

In each of the options in the question, the runner missed a base, either in regular or reverse order, and, according to the rule, as written, is subject to a successful appeal.

Rule 5 gives the order the bases must be touched for a runner to score a run, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, home.

And I have games all the time where bases are NOT touched but runs are scored. It's not an epidemic of biblical proportions or anything, but they don't HAVE to be touched for a run to be scored.

so...

IF there is NO APPEAL then we have to go on the assumption that the bases were indeed touched.

And we are going on another assumption, as Greymule said so eloquently, that " 'unless he corrects his mistake' is so obvious it doesn't have to be written."