Bat the bench rules

Dakota · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 05, 2001, 10:26am

Our fall ball (ASA JO rules, with local rules regarding unlimited defensive substitution and bat the bench) is viewed as mostly a pseudo-rec league, with the intent to keep the players playing later into the year, development of skills, etc. Many of the travel players play in fall ball, so the skill level varies all over the map.

Anyway, the fall ball program has the following rule:

10. Unlimited defensive substitutions allowed, mandatory continuous batting of entire roster of players in attendance. Once a player is removed from their offensive position at any time, they cannot re-enter the game offensively or defensively. If a player is injured while batting or running and cannot continue the previous out substitutes for them. Failure to bat the bench will result in a forfeit by the offending team.

This rule was applied at a recent tournament to declare a forfeit against a team that had the number 1 batter come to bat when it was the number 10 batter's turn at bat. The batter who did not come to bat was on the official lineup card in the #10 position, and it was her first turn at bat, so a simple oversight seems more likely than a willful attempt to not bat the bench. The forfeit was declared by the state office because they had no choice the way the rule was written. The defensive coach would not allow the matter to be settled by the PU as a batting out of order violation, and insisted on an appeal to the Tournament Director, who called the state office.

This seems to me to be a vast overkill for what is really a simple batting out of order violation.

Do any of you have copies of "bat the bench" rules that may do a better job of distinguishing between a batting out of order violation and a bat the bench violation?

SamNVa · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 05, 2001, 11:27am

Dakota,

I don't have a rule for you, but I do have a questioon and a comment.

First the question: Did B1 actually complete his time at bat before the defensive coach complained? If he didn't then B10 could have just replaced him in the box and assumed the count. It's not a BOOT violation or a skipped batter until the incorrect batter completes his turn at bat.

Now the comment: This guy was a real *ss*ole to insist on a forfeit when a simple BOOT out would have sufficed. He robbed both teams of the chance to play the game. And this is supposed to be "a pseudo-rec league, with the intent to keep the players playing later into the year, development of skills, etc." How many skills did the team develop in that game. What a jerk!!

Dakota · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 05, 2001, 11:51am

Sam,

No, she did not complete her turn at bat. The PU tried to have the #10 batter come up to bat and assume the count. The defensive coach insisted on an appeal to the TD.

The prevailing opinion of all concerned is that the defensive coach was a jerk. In order to get a win in the first game of pool play fer cryin' out loud, he caused another team to be disqualified and sent home.

I think the state organization got hoist on their own petard of sloppy rule writing. (BTW, for something completely different, look up the etymology of "petard" some time -- gives new insight to the meaning of being hoist on one's own petard!)

SamNVa · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 05, 2001, 12:08pm

Dakota,

I think the state committee had a way out of this situation and for whatever reason didn't take it. Since B1 had not completed her time at bat, the offensive team could have placed B10 in the box at any time with no penalty and merely have her assume the current count. She has not been officially skipped until B1 completes her turn at bat. Someone in the state office really tanked that decision.

I hope the jerk went on to lose the rest of his games, but probably not.

If I might add a statement to your rule as written:

This rule is intended to cover intentional acts by the team on offense to deny a player their turn at bat. It does not supercede the normal BOOT rule in such cases where the BOOT rule is applicable.

--Sam

[Edited by SamNVa on Oct 5th, 2001 at 12:14 PM]

bluezebra · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 05, 2001, 01:18pm

The people who wrote the rule were morons. The umpires who interpreted the rule were morons. And the league officials who upheld the forfeit are morons. The coach who insisted on the forfeit is a win-above-all jerk who should not work with youth.

Bob

Dakota · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 05, 2001, 01:49pm

Bob,

It's hard to argue with most of our sentiment, except for this one...

The umpires who interpreted the rule were morons.

The umpires ruled batting out of order, and ruled that the #10 batter should go to bat, and assume the count.

They were overruled by the Tournament Director, who called the state officials, who made the forfeit call.

Gulf Coast Blue · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 05, 2001, 08:45pm

Ouch Dakota...........

Our Fall ball rules are wonderful.........

Free subs.........bat the line-up......no scores "officially" kept........if the scheduled batter is not available........you skip to the next batter.........

I would hope that the coaches here in fall-ball won't "unexpectedly" have a weak hitter in the restroom............grin.

BTW........my youngest starts her first "kid pitch" games this Sunday afternoon.......she got released to play with no restrictions two weeks ago (after broken arm).

From my coaching days............the coaches of her team will be pulling their hair out for the next few weeks..........the first several games in 10U will test their will for coaching youth sports....................

Typical weekend here............9yo has soccer game at noon Saturday.........13yo has volleyball tournamnent starting 10 a.m. Sundday..........Oldest has soccer game @ 1:00 p.m. Sunday.........youngest has 3 softball games starting at 1:00 p.m. Sunday........

I will have the camera with me this weekend so will hopefully update my website soon.

Joel

[Edited by Gulf Coast Blue on Oct 6th, 2001 at 05:35 AM]

whiskers_ump · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 06, 2001, 07:35am

Joel,

Hope that your weather is better than ours.
The front that blew through during the nite
has put a 47 team tournament on hold until
noon, then we will see if games came be
played.

Good luck to Katie, and the rest of the gals.

Dakota,

We play our fall ball just about as Joel stated.
Coaches have mutual agreement not to bat "sluggers"
in key situtations. Gentlemens Agreement Plan. LOL
[has always worked out, never had a coach slip
a hitter in----that was caught by anyone, anyway.

A needed edit is required on the not to bat "sluggers"
in key situtations. Naturally, if it is their turn
to bat they would bat, just dont slip'em in when need seems
to call for a "slugger"

glen

[Edited by whiskers_ump on Oct 6th, 2001 at 09:58 PM]

IRISHMAFIA · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 07, 2001, 09:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Bob,

It's hard to argue with most of our sentiment, except for this one...

The umpires who interpreted the rule were morons.

The umpires ruled batting out of order, and ruled that the #10 batter should go to bat, and assume the count.

They were overruled by the Tournament Director, who called the state officials, who made the forfeit call.

What type of authority would an ASA state official have with a local rule?

While I appreciate the spirit behind the rule, the penalties are a bit ridiculous. But this is what happens when you let coaches make the rules!

The inmates are running the asylum and the umpires should run for their lives!!!!

Steve M · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 08, 2001, 04:30am

Gotta admit, Mike, I wondered why a state ASA official would want to have anything to do with a local rule.

Dakota · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 08, 2001, 09:37am

In my state, all ASA sactioned teams, leagues, umpires, etc. outside of the boundaries of the two largest cities are controlled by the a state organization. This includes travel teams, rec teams, fast pitch, slow pitch, ... all of it.

The fall JO fast pitch leagues are a creature of this state organization. It is their rule.

To ge fair, they run a fun, low key fall program. I think they just got tripped up with this rule.

I was hoping some of you guys would have copies of fall rules that conver this bat the bench idea, but would be better written.

IRISHMAFIA · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 08, 2001, 12:49pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
In my state, all ASA sactioned teams, leagues, umpires, etc. outside of the boundaries of the two largest cities are controlled by the a state organization. This includes travel teams, rec teams, fast pitch, slow pitch, ... all of it.

The fall JO fast pitch leagues are a creature of this state organization. It is their rule.

To ge fair, they run a fun, low key fall program. I think they just got tripped up with this rule.

I was hoping some of you guys would have copies of fall rules that conver this bat the bench idea, but would be better written.

We have the same thing here, but only in SP. However, none of the State Umpire staff are involved with the "league rules". Of course, that does not mean that I would not help them out with an interpretation as a courtesy, but not as that of a drop-dead authority since these are not my rules to start.

Based on what has been posted, they still kicked the call. Since there is no detailed definition in the league rule to challenge the question, I would defer to ASA's rule which allows the official batter or her substitute (which would not apply here) to assume the count of the improper batter. The official batter has not vacated her position, nor should be considered removed from the game until at least when the wrong batter completes her turn at bat.

Of course, this is just my opinion, but I believe the defensive coach the TD and the umpires were wrong.