Rules I hope I never see in games

[tcannizzo]

FOUL BALL...
H. Hits the pitching plate and rolls untouched to foul terrritory before reaching first or third base.

[wadeintothem]

well thats just tough cuz youre gonna see that one...

[tcblue13]

That one and the ball that dribbles up the line and comes to rest leaning on the outside of the 1B or 3B bag.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

FOUL BALL...
H. Hits the pitching plate and rolls untouched to foul terrritory before reaching first or third base.

Then you will have a really tough time with the pop-up which lands behind the PP and rolls foul prior to passing a base.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Then you will have a really tough time with the pop-up which lands behind the PP and rolls foul prior to passing a base.

Double posting will get you to 6000 in a hurry

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Then you will have a really tough time with the pop-up which lands behind the PP and rolls foul prior to passing a base.

Not really. But there was something in the way the rule struck me that caused me to post.

So, in the words of the orginal Saturday Night Live, Rosann-Rosanadana, "Nevermind"

[greymule]

How about the popup on which the BR intentionally interferes with F3 and causes the winning run to score?

Or where the runner intentionally interferes with a throw and causes the winning run to score?

Yes, it can happen.

Going the other way, last year I finally got to call a play I hoped I'd see but thought I never would:

Abel on 1B, one out, Baker lines a drive to center. Abel is around 2B and on his way to 3B when F8 makes a diving catch. As Abel is returning to 2B on his way back to 1B, F8 fires the ball back to the infield. The ball somehow gets through everybody and then rolls into the dugout as Abel is reaching 1B.

The offense is claiming that Abel is awarded 3B. The defense is claiming the Abel is awarded 2B (the old one-plus-one). But I get to shock the ballpark by making the proper (ASA) call and award Abel home.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by greymule

How about the popup on which the BR intentionally interferes with F3 and causes the winning run to score?

Or where the runner intentionally interferes with a throw and causes the winning run to score?

Yes, it can happen.

Going the other way, last year I finally got to call a play I hoped I'd see but thought I never would:

Abel on 1B, one out, Baker lines a drive to center. Abel is around 2B and on his way to 3B when F8 makes a diving catch. As Abel is returning to 2B on his way back to 1B, F8 fires the ball back to the infield. The ball somehow gets through everybody and then rolls into the dugout as Abel is reaching 1B.

The offense is claiming that Abel is awarded 3B. The defense is claiming the Abel is awarded 2B (the old one-plus-one). But I get to shock the ballpark by making the proper (ASA) call and award Abel home.

I think you missed a leaving early call.

[LLPA13UmpDan]

I think i see how he got HP

1 from the mound, 2 from the feild

When the ball went out of play, the last leagally touched base was 2B. The fact that the ball was caught makes no difference. Ball was thrown out of play...thus he gets home. am i right?

[bigsig]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

I think i see how he got HP

1 from the mound, 2 from the feild

When the ball went out of play, the last leagally touched base was 2B. The fact that the ball was caught makes no difference. Ball was thrown out of play...thus he gets home. am i right?

That's interesting. If he didn't go back and touch 2B, and you awarded him home on the throw, could the defense then appeal the BR not touching second, or leaving early?

[greymule]

That's interesting. If he didn't go back and touch 2B, and you awarded him home on the throw, could the defense then appeal the BR not touching second, or leaving early?

The baserunner still has to complete his responsibilities. He is certainly subject to appeal for any mistakes made. But this runner did touch 2B on the way back to 1B, touched 1B, and then touched all the bases going forward.

ASA is the only code I know of that awards home on this play. In OBR, once the runner initiates a return, the award is 3B (2 bases from the base he was returning to). The reasons are complicated.

Incidentally, would you uphold the appeal if the runner missed 2B on the way back to 1B, but then retouched 1B and in taking his award of home then correctly touched 2B, 3B, and home plate?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by bigsig

That's interesting. If he didn't go back and touch 2B, and you awarded him home on the throw, could the defense then appeal the BR not touching second, or leaving early?

The biggest problem with the earlier quote is it leads one to an issue not in the rule. Nothing requires a base to be legally touched. Nor are awarded bases exempt from baserunning rules.

So, to respond to both previous posts,

8-5.G EFFECT: All runners will be awarded two bases, and the award will be governed by the position of the runners when the ball left the fielder's hand. Runners may return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon. When two runners are between the same bases, the award is baed on the position of the lead runner.

This is actually a lot easier than the questions asked. Runner was between 2B & 3B when ball was thrown; two base award is 3B and home. Nothing in the rule suggests it matters if bases were legally touched, or what direction the runner toward. Runner must retouch 2B and 1B, then legally advance to 2B, 3B, and home. If runner does not fulfill all baserunning responsibilities (retouching 1B, and touching all bases in proper order), runner is subject to a proper appeal.

Quite simple, actually. Greymule, I challenge you to research the same OBR rule; it has been decades since I called baseball, but I seem to recall the same basic rule, two bases from the actual position at time of throw, without regard to legally touched or direction headed.

[greymule]

Quite simple, actually. Greymule, I challenge you to research the same OBR rule; it has been decades since I called baseball, but I seem to recall the same basic rule, two bases from the actual position at time of throw, without regard to legally touched or direction headed.

OBR 7.05 [note at the end]

If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base. [my italics]

That clause has been in the OBR book for as long as I can remember. But the following play has been problematic, and OBR (or somebody who recommends things for OBR) has finally given instructions on how to handle it:

Abel on 1B, no outs. Baker hits a drive to deep right-center. Abel returns to 1B to tag up. F8 dives and makes a great catch at the base of the fence. You as PU see that Abel left slightly early, but apparently no one else has noticed, as everybody was watching F8 try to run down Baker's drive. Abel rounds 2B, and as F8 had to recover from the dive and get up and throw, starts for 3B. As Abel slides into 3B, the throw gets away and goes into DBT. Abel stands on 3B looking at you.

The question had been what award to make. Abel was in a sense "forced to return to a base after a catch," so the award would be 3B. However, awarding 3B would be tantamount to announcing that Abel left too soon. So the award is home. However, if Abel initiates a return (perhaps the 3B coach was watching and tells him he left too soon), the award is changed to 3B, though Abel must still complete his baserunning responsibilities.

The part about initiating a return has been part of the rules interpretation for a long time, but it was not clear how to handle the glitch of the runner's initiating a return after the award was made. The direct instruction to change the award after it has been made is a couple of years old.

Note that Fed and OBR differ as to when a runner can no longer legally return to touch a missed base. In OBR, the runner can return to correct an error unless he had advanced to the next base after the ball became dead. In Fed (last I looked), if when the ball becomes dead the runner is on or beyond the base past the one he left too soon, he cannot legally return. So in Fed, a runner between 2B and 3B could be heading back toward 2B in his attempt to return to 1B, but if the ball goes into DBT before he reaches 2B, he cannot then legally return to 1B. Incidentally, the ASA rule used to be similar, and if you read POE 38 (2006 book) carefully, you'll notice that ASA stipulates that "the runner was between 1B and 2B when the ball went out of play." This clause is an artifact of the old rule, and is no longer necessary in the POE.

ASA now stipulates that a runner can return to correct an error unless he advances to the next base after the award is made. So ASA differs from both OBR and Fed.

[Alaska Ump]

You've left me scratching my head here, wondering if I'm missing something or you have confused your Abel and Baker. Unless I'm reading your hypothetical wrong, Baker hit a deep line drive that was caught and he is out. So what's he doing standing on third base?

[greymule]

You've left me scratching my head here, wondering if I'm missing something or you have confused your Abel and Baker. Unless I'm reading your hypothetical wrong, Baker hit a deep line drive that was caught and he is out. So what's he doing standing on third base?

You're 100% correct. I mixed up Abel and Baker. I'll correct it now. Thanks.

I usually keep Abel and Baker straight, but, uh . . . in this game, they're cousins who look alike.