Clarification please re: BR advancing to second?

[RonlyBonly]

Looking for some clarification please on a BR advancing to 2B after "overrunning 1B" or "making the turn" at 1B. The rules I am reading are ASA 8-7-B, 8-7-H, and POE 1-A-4.

Please tell me if my understanding is correct or if not, where it is screwed up. My understanding has been:

1) BR overruns 1B, turns right into foul territory to return to 1B is not liable to be put out while in foul territory. (?)
2) BR overruns 1B, turns left into fair territory to return to 1B is liable to be put out by being tagged while in fair territory and not in contact with the base. (?)

8-7-B seems to indicate BR is out in situation #2, or does 8-7-H mean that the BR has to be attempting to advance to 2B to be liable to be tagged out? IOW if the BR overruns 1B and is clearly just returning to 1B without any attempt to advance but is doing so inside the line in fair territory, is she liable to be tagged out as she returns to 1B?

3) In POE 1-A-4, "making the turn" refers to turning left into fair territory, correct?

POE 1-A-4 seems to put "attempting to advance to second" in a special category with "leaving a base on a caught fly ball before the ball is first touched" rather than it just being a runner not in contact with the base. I understand how the runner can be put out by tagging the runner while she is off the base (for whatever reason--whether she left a base early, is advancing to second, or just went to look at a bug) but why is "advancing to second" an appeal play rather than a routine tag out of a player off a base like any other?

POE 1-B and 1-C do not mention any live-ball or dead-ball appeal on "attempting to advance to second" other than tagging the runner so I take that to mean there is none.

Thank you.

[Dakota]

Speaking ASA (and all others I know of), the direction the BR turns after overrunning 1B has no bearing whatsoever on anything at all (with the exception of the LBR, which is not the topic here).

8-8-I trumps 8-7-B for the BR overrunning 1B. 8-8-I gives the BR protection until the BR returns to 1B. "Directly" in this rule only means "does not try to go anywhere else." The BR still is allowed to choose her path back to 1B.

8-7-H is the rule that states how the BR who overruns 1B can lose protection... by making a try for 2B. That's it. No try, still protected; try, no longer protected; no matter which direction the BR turns, no matter if in fair or foul territory.

Don't know why it is classified as an appeal play; it just is. But, it must be a live ball appeal only, since the runners are allowed to complete their baserunning before a dead ball appeal will be recognized, so before the appeal would be recognized, the BR would return to 1B rendering the appeal moot.

[CecilOne]

Headline news version:
BR has to be attempting to advance to 2B to be liable to be tagged out

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Headline news version:
BR has to be attempting to advance to 2B to be liable to be tagged out

You aren't accusing me of being verbose or anything, are you Cecil?

'Cause you know I am always brief, to the point, and direct. I never use redundant, superfluous, or excessive language. I always simplify my responses down to the bare minimum, saying only what is absolutly necessary. I, in no way whatsoever, use repetitive tautologous phraseology, preferring instead the uncomplicated straightforward language without exorbitant and needless embellishment.

Don'tchaknow.

[RonlyBonly]

Thanks, I appreciate BOTH answers :-).

I have seen this called both ways (BR returning to 1B in fair territory and getting tagged being called both safe and out), and most teams I have been involved in (rec) teach the girls to turn right and return to 1B in foul territory. Maybe that is an attempt to make it clear to the umpire that they are not attempting to advance, or maybe they are just under the same misunderstanding that if they are in fair territory they are "fair game" so to speak. Maybe when I have seen the BR called out when returning to 1B the umpire placed the burden of showing "returning directly" heavily on the BR so as not to give her the opportunity to sort of meander back in the direction of 1B protected, while trying to retain the option of advancing at the last second if things changed (?)

Probably the best umping I have seen in this situation (now that it is clear to me) was the runner returning to 1B in fair territory, F3 tagging her and the ump signalling "safe" and verbalizing "no she didn't" (or something like that).

Dakota, whan you say, "No try, still protected; try, no longer protected; no matter which direction the BR turns, no matter if in fair or foul territory." does that mean that a BR who overruns 1B and turns right but then attempts to advance to 2B can be tagged out while still in foul territory (probably not a likely scenario, but in 10U rec ball anything is possible!)? 8-7-H certainly seems to say so, since it does not add "while in fair territory" or anything to the end of the sentence.

BTW, Dakota, thank you so much for citing the applicable rule.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by RonlyBonly

Dakota, whan you say, "No try, still protected; try, no longer protected; no matter which direction the BR turns, no matter if in fair or foul territory." does that mean that a BR who overruns 1B and turns right but then attempts to advance to 2B can be tagged out while still in foul territory... BTW, Dakota, thank you so much for citing the applicable rule.

Yes. Once the BR makes a try for 2nd, she has lost her protection and is merely a runner off the base during a live ball. And, you're welcome.

[IRISHMAFIA]

You are reading too much into this rule. Forget fair/foul territory as neither is a suggested parameter for the rules in question.

It is real simple. If, in the umpire's judgment, the runner made an attempt to advance, s/he is in jeopardy.

Knowing this took place isn't that difficult, either. As the base umpire, if at any time you feel the need to be prepared to head toward
2B, the runner probably gave you cause to think so.

[canump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You are reading too much into this rule. Forget fair/foul territory as neither is a suggested parameter for the rules in question.

It is real simple. If, in the umpire's judgment, the runner made an attempt to advance, s/he is in jeopardy.

Knowing this took place isn't that difficult, either. As the base umpire, if at any time you feel the need to be prepared to head toward
2B, the runner probably gave you cause to think so.

Likewise even in Ontario

[Dakota]

A general comment on this.

I don't know if it was / is a baseball rule or has always been just a myth, but many coaches of younger teams teach the "turn right" thing as if it actually makes a difference. Maybe they believe it to be the rule, I don't know.

If the coaches believe it to be the rule, and an umpire calls it that way, there is unlikely to be any complaints, and hence everybody continues on as if this were the rule.

But, it isn't.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I don't know if it was / is a baseball rule or has always been just a myth, but many coaches of younger teams teach the "turn right" thing as if it actually makes a difference. Maybe they believe it to be the rule, I don't know.

I think that this is just another of those myths that seem to follow the game all over. Maybe you should add it to the fictitious rules on the eteamz umpiring site.