Look back rule with a walk

Dakota · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Aug 21, 2001, 08:42pm

This subject came up during idle chit-chat between umpires at a recent tournament I called.

ASA rules.

Situation: Base on balls; F2 immediately throws back to F1, who has the ball in the circle before the BR gets to 1B. F1 is mostly ignoring the BR - clearly not making a play. BR rounds 1B, stops, and immediately returns to 1B.

Question: How do you distinguish between "rounding" 1B and committing to 2B?

Many aggressive runners will "round" quite a bit - 3-4 steps or more, taking a wide swing. Usually, these runners are sprinting to 1B, so they have some momentum when they reach the base. One of the blues in the discussion said he would ring them up if they took more than a step. I, on the other hand, looked for more than just steps. If the runner seemed to be taking several steps to slow to a stop, and made no other attempt toward 2B, I'd allow that.

What do you do? How do you enforce the look back rule in this situation?

Steve M · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Aug 21, 2001, 09:47pm

OK, I think we're starting to compare apples & oranges here. A batter-runner who commits to 2B by "making an attempt" has done so only on a "hit" (where F3 can tag the batter-runner with the ball & get an out) - not when considering a look-back violation. In your scenario - walked batter who does not stop, rounds first by X number of strides, then stops, then returns to 1B - it does not matter how many steps the runner takes. This runner DID NOT STOP, until they stopped & wen back to 1B. For look-back purposes, there is no violation here. Taking it to the extreme - suppose this runner gets almost to 2B, stops, and then immediately returns to 1B. This is OK. Go back and check the criteria for the look-back to be in effect, I think you'll understand better now.

Gulf Coast Blue · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Aug 21, 2001, 10:12pm

Dakota........these are my criteria.......

I did a little cut and paste on another board, where I responded to almost the same question.........

The way I have learned to deal with this rule........(the wording has changed in the ASA book every year for the last 4)........

Is to allow the runner to round a base......find the ball and advance or retreat........Legal on all fronts........WALKS included........I give em' a one-one-thousand......then.......BANG.

If the BR over-runs first.......they have 3 choices.........

1. They may round the base.......find the ball and advance or retreat.......

2. They over-run: stop, turn and start heading back to first........they are NOW committed to first!! If they break toward 2nd.......they are guilty of the lookback rule.

3. They over-run: stop, turn and start towards 2nd........they are NOW committed to 2nd!! If they decide........ahhh.....not a good idea, and try to go back to 1st.......they are guilty of the lookback rule.

That's about as simple as I can make it......

I witnessed our State FED and Region (ASA UIC) give a demonstration of this on the field........once I saw it......it made sense...........grin

This is a confusing rule...........I gave you my criteria.........and it is backed up by rule.........(and my Region interpretation).......

I do however, believe the older wording of the rule was simpler..........I think this is one of the few times that ASA added a bunch of verbiage that confused the rule instead of clarifying it........

Vintage 1999 was the best.....it says the same thing and is more pleasing to the palate..............grin.

Joel

[Edited by Gulf Coast Blue on Aug 21st, 2001 at 10:18 PM]

whiskers_ump · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Aug 22, 2001, 06:08am

Dakota,

When two people respond to a question
in the manner Steve M. and Joel did,
not much anyone else can add, except
good job guys. Helped me understand
more better . Thanks .

glen

IRISHMAFIA · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Aug 22, 2001, 06:14am

Steve and Joel did a great job...for ASA. However, I believe NFHS has made a change to this rule regarding the look-back on walks beginning in the 2002 season.

I haven't fully read the change, and it just may be semantic, but I thought I would give all a heads up.

Steve M · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Aug 22, 2001, 10:26am

If I recall correctly, the Fed change to the Look-Back rule for next season is that it is not in effect until the batter-runner reaches 1B. Previously other runners were in jeopardy before thebatter-runner got to First.

Gus44 · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Aug 22, 2001, 11:34am

A similar situation:

R3 Gets a lead-off with the pitch, and the ball is hit by B1, a line drive right back to F1. F1 catches it, in the circle, B1 is out. R3 goes back and tags 3rd base.

Does R3 now have her one chance to come off the bag, find the ball, and retreat or advance?

Can she tag and continue home while the whole time the pitcher has the ball in the circle?

Dakota · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Aug 22, 2001, 11:51am

Speaking ASA...

POE 29D A pitcher fielding a ball in the circle is just another fielder and runners can leave their base. If they leave their base, the same rule applies while the pitcher holds the ball in the circle: once the runner stops, they must decide which way to continue or be called out.

If R3 had stayed put, once F1 catches the ball, she may then leave for home (as foolish as that would probably be).

Since in your scenario she needs to return to 3B to tag, her one allowed "stop" happened when she stopped & returned to 3B. Unless F1 is making some move indicating making a play, R3 must stay put once she returns to 3B.

The only way (IMO) R3 would be allowed to tag up and break for home is if the pitcher is still trying to control the catch during the tag-up, or if F1 makes a play on R3 or another runner.

whiskers_ump · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Aug 22, 2001, 05:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve M
If I recall correctly, the Fed change to the Look-Back rule for next season is that it is not in effect until the batter-runner reaches 1B. Previously other runners were in jeopardy before thebatter-runner got to First.

Steve,

You are correct, as usual , according to
the printout I got from Joel. (I cheated, just
printed out what he posted instead of going to
NFHS site.)

glen

Gus44 · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 23, 2001, 11:32am

Dakota,

So you are saying that since R3 was running(taking her lead) with the pitch, stops and goes back to third when F1 catches the ball, that she no longer has the right, as foolish as it may be, to tag and continue home? I would think that she should have an opportunity to advance.

Dakota · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 23, 2001, 04:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Gus44
I would think that she should have an opportunity to advance.

It would all depend (IMO) upon when she tagged up relative to when F1 stopped fielding the ball, and when she again became a pitcher with the ball in the circle.

If it was bang-bang-bang, I can't imagine an umpire calling it. If she stands on 3B for a few moments trying to decide what to do, then she would probably be called out if she stepped off the base.