How would you rule?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

I need to be convinced. Here's my logic:

8-7-G: "The Runner Is Out" - "When a runner fails to touch the intervening base...and the ball is returned to an infielder and properly appealed."

8-7-I Effect 1.2. (for above listed section and others) "(Live Ball Appeal) If properly appealed during a live ball, the runner is out."

POE 1.B. "Appeals" - "Live. In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed..."

Those are ASA rules, in the ASA rule book, specifically talking about LBA, with no inclusion of the phrase "unless the runner is trying to return," so how is LBA not available in ASA, (regardless of what the runner is doing)?

You guys need to find some fall ball to work. You're already driving me crazy with all this overthinking the rules.

Why would it say anything about the direction of the runner? If a runner passed the base without touching it, an appeal is available. Would you rule the runner out if s/he were continuing to 3B? What difference does it make where the runner is located (other than safely on the base) when a live-ball appeal is made.

This would only be an issue if the ball became dead. In the OP, the runner was retired, therefore, no longer giving her the right to any base. Live ball appeal or dead ball, the appeal is still available.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You guys need to find some fall ball to work. You're already driving me crazy with all this overthinking the rules.

That's me! I'm good for some thorough over-analyzation about once a month. Soon I'll be on the football board, until spring comes around again, so I'll try not to annoy anyone for a while.

MCrowder - I wasn't trying to bash on anyone - I just like working out stuff in my head (and on my computer) - it gets me in those books, which is always a good thing. The 4th out issues get me every time I re-look at them and start dreaming up situations. Maybe next spring I'll duct tape the rule book, open to that section, to my face while I sleep, in hope of some 4th out rule clarity osmosis.

On a completely unrelated and off-topic note, I finally got the opportunity to work 3-person. I was 1B for the NorCal Men's D Slow Pitch Championship, and it went fantastically, and I loved it. Makes me look forward even more to Nationals. Good stuff.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

How do you mean? I'm having a hard time understanding those rules. But remember the case play where, after a runner is tagged out at home for the third out, the batter is put out before reaching 1B. ASA says that the run that had scored earlier counts.

I agree that there may be a contradiction here, so I'm going to ask the question. Let you know of any response I receive.

[Alaska Ump]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

An overrun or overslide is most DEFINITELY passing the base. How in the world do you overslide or overrun without passing the base?!?!?!

Just to take off on a tangent, an overrun and an overslide are not the same thing.

For instance, if the batter tries to stretch a single into a double, but overruns second base and is tagged out before getting back, he is credited with a double. But if a batter tries to stretch a single into a double, but overslides second base and is tagged out before getting back, he is credited with a single. (Or is it the other way around? I always forget.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I agree that there may be a contradiction here, so I'm going to ask the question. Let you know of any response I receive.

Well, below is the answer I received from ASA:

We, the Deputy Staff, believe you are making Rule 5 section 5 harder than it needs to be. Rule 5 section 5B 1-3 applies to when “ No run shall score if the THIRD out of the inning is the result of….. Rule 5 section 5C applies to a fourth out appeal only. By design the intent has always been to have an appeal process for a runner that had scored but did so without following the rules. The intent of the rule has never been to have the ability to appeal another runner, other than one that had scored, once the third out was recorded. We agree that because the rule change in 2003 added Rule 5 section 5C, the note should have been removed. As it is we believe the note only points out that there can be an appeal after the third out in order to nullify a run and 5C tells you how.

Our casebook play in this situation is correct. Once the third out was recorded on R2 there was no reason for the batter-runner to go all the way to 1B. Another example if R1 was on 3B and R2 on 2B with 2 outs and a ground ball to the infield and they throw R2 out at 3B after R1 scores but before the Batter-runner makes it to 1B (by choice or because they are slow) the intent of the rule is not to give the defense the ability to have a double play thus a 4th out and the run not count.

In your play, Runners on 3B and 1B, two outs. Batted ball to F6 who throws the ball past F4 at second base. R2 continues to, but is thrown out at 3B. However, R2 missed 2B. The defense now throws the ball to F4 who tags 2B and appeals the missed base.

By rule that run would score and rule 5 section 5 B1 does not apply, Rule 5 section 5C applies. Since R2 was thrown out at 3B for the third out the chance to appeal the runner missing 2B has gone by the way side.

[John Robertson]

Just to complicate things, in Canada (where I am) I'm reasonably sure that this play is considered both an appeal and a force play. Thus, if a proper appeal is made, the run would be nullified.

But In Canada we also put gravy on French fries...

[Andy]

So just to clarify for my own edification....

The official interp that Mike has provided from ASA says that the advantageous "fourth" out appeal to nullify a run is only available on a runner that has scored?

Is this correct?



And...just to ask...would the ruling be different in FED and/or NCAA?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

So just to clarify for my own edification....

The official interp that Mike has provided from ASA says that the advantageous "fourth" out appeal to nullify a run is only available on a runner that has scored?

Is this correct?

That's correct, that is what it states.

[greymule]

Very interesting. Thank you, Mike, for doing the research on this.

Therefore, in my original post, the tag of Baker is not a force play. Baker passed 2B when he overslid, so the tag has the same effect as if Baker had missed 2B and was tagged halfway to 3B. The tag of Baker effects the third out as a time play, and because Baker did not score, there is no fourth out appeal on him for missing 2B.

So Abel's run would count in ASA because no appeal is permitted on Baker (and the run would also count in OBR, for different reasons).

Note that if after Baker slid past 2B without touching it, F4 (if he thought fast enough) could appeal to the umpire and tag Baker to nullify the run—perhaps by yelling, "He missed the bag" as he dove to tag Baker. The out at 2B would then be the third out—and a force out. This is because ASA (unlike OBR) permits an immediate live-ball appeal on a missed base.

And...just to ask...would the ruling be different in FED and/or NCAA?

In NCAA, the defense can obtain a fourth out on appeal whether or not the runner being appealed had scored. I'm sure that's the case in Fed also. I never heard of this rule under any code until it came up with ASA recently.

In terms of whether a live-ball appeal can be immediate:

I don't know about Fed. Though I do NCAA, I admit that I do not know the answer. But I will find out. A preliminary reading indicates that a live-ball appeal can be immediate.

I believe that in Babe Ruth softball, which by and large follows OBR rules for runners (obstruction, interference, crashes, etc.), the run would not count, since there is no live ball appeal while the runner is in the vicinity of the base.

[Bandit]

[QUOTE=greymule]

Note that if after Baker slid past 2B without touching it, F4 (if he thought fast enough) could appeal to the umpire and tag Baker to nullify the run—perhaps by yelling, "He missed the bag" as he dove to tag Baker. The out at 2B would then be the third out—and a force out. This is because ASA (unlike OBR) permits an immediate live-ball appeal on a missed base.

NO NO NO...don't care if the F4 was Superman. Yelling, shouting, sky writing or anything else would NOT create an appeal. THE RUN SCORES !!!!!!

[Andy]

[QUOTE=Bandit]

Originally Posted by greymule

Note that if after Baker slid past 2B without touching it, F4 (if he thought fast enough) could appeal to the umpire and tag Baker to nullify the run—perhaps by yelling, "He missed the bag" as he dove to tag Baker. The out at 2B would then be the third out—and a force out. This is because ASA (unlike OBR) permits an immediate live-ball appeal on a missed base.

NO NO NO...don't care if the F4 was Superman. Yelling, shouting, sky writing or anything else would NOT create an appeal. THE RUN SCORES !!!!!!

Bandit - I think the difference that Grey is attempting to point out here is between the third out of the inning and an appeal for a fourth out to prevent a run.

As Mike has pointed out, once the third out was made by tagging the runner after he passed second base, the opportunity for the fourth out appeal on that runner is gone and the run scores.

However, if F4 is smart and quick enough, like Grey points out above, and he yells out the appeal before tagging R2 or steps on second, that appeal then is the third out of the inning. Since R2 was forced to second base on the batted ball, the third out is a force out and no runs can score.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I have misstated this.

[greymule]

However, if F4 is smart and quick enough, like Grey points out above, and he yells out the appeal before tagging R2 or steps on second, that appeal then is the third out of the inning. Since R2 was forced to second base on the batted ball, the third out is a force out and no runs can score.

Yes, that's the way I see it. But this appeal is possible only because ASA permits an immediate live-ball appeal even if the runner is near the base and trying to return to it. In OBR, this type of appeal is not possible—the runner is still in the vicinity of the base (a factor ASA does not recognize)—and thus in the famous OBR case play, the out is a time play and the run scores.

I must say that while I now understand the ASA rule, I find it hard to swallow. Bases loaded, 2 out. Daniels hits a ball off the fence. Three runs score, and Daniels is out at home. The defense appeals Daniels' miss of 1B. The umpire must deny the appeal, and the three runs count.

Suppose Daniels had slid home on a close play and been called safe. The appeal at 1B would then be upheld and all the runs nullified. In that case, Daniels would argue with the umpire that he was in fact out at home and how could the guy be so blind as to call him safe. F2 would then be claiming that he dropped the ball and Daniels was indeed safe. I want to see this someday—the runner arguing that he was out, and the catcher arguing that the runner was safe.