Double base ?

[oppool]

B/R digging out a grounder gets to 1st base just before the ball arrives. Problem, B/R left foot is fully on the white side of the double base bag when the ball arrives.

Do You

A. ring her up as the white side of the bag doesn't exist for the runner on this play and she has not passed the base in which would call for a live ball appeal

B. Safe and wait for the live ball appeal since she did touch the white before the ball arrived


Thanks for Replies

Don

[Dakota]

Safe pending appeal & the appeal must be made before the BR returns to 1B.

ASA 8-2M

[whiskers_ump]

Speaking ASA.....

Dakota 100% correct.

Speaking AFA.....

For initial play at first we have just
one large base. If base touched prior
to ball arriving, BLUE has a SAFE

glen

[Steve M]

Glen,
I don't do AFA ball - don't think thre is any in Pa. What happens if batter-runner passes 1B without touching it? Is it the same as ASA - batter-runnr assumed to have touched it for purposes of out/safe but can be called out on appeal if before he/she returns to the base?

[oppool]

Okay guys by your answers I know you are going to disagree with my reasoning here but in the above situation I am going to call the runner out.

The whole thing with the double-base is for saftey but I have called over 1000 games in slow-pitch over the last 3 years in have yet seen a offensive team properly appeal the missed base situation on this when the runner only hits white. First, F3 playing his position properly and strectching for the catch is never going to see if the runner hits white or orange the only real member of the offensive team that is going to have a good view of this in most situations will be the pitcher. Now if F3 doesnt know how to play the position and puts his foot on top of the bag instead of touching the side then he is much more likely to draw the contact for the interference call and the auto out. So are we teaching the offenses with this message that F3 should improperly play his position?? I know our duty is to enforce the rules as they are written but sometimes......


JMHO

Don

[Dakota]

Don,

It's not that I disagree with your reasoning, but that I do not agree that your interpretation is possible with the ASA rule as written. The way you have posed the question has the runner arriving "just before the ball arrives" means you would be able to sell the call of "out" using your ruling. Just don't explain what you really called, or you may have a protest filed.

However, what if the play is not that close? F3 is still stretching for the ball & can't see where the BR's foot hits, but everyone else clearly sees the BR is ahead of the throw.

It's not that this is an ambiguous rule in ASA...

ASA 8-2. BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT. M. If, when using the double-base, and there is a play on the batter-runner, the batter-runner touches only the white portion and the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to first base. This is treated the same as missing the base.

Clearly written with no option given (assuming the listed exceptions are not in force), so if you call an ASA game your way, you are making up your own rule in the interest of what you consider "fair." We are not supposed to call the game as we see fairness, but as the rules define the game.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Steve M
Glen,
I don't do AFA ball - don't think thre is any in Pa. What happens if batter-runner passes 1B without touching it? Is it the same as ASA - batter-runnr assumed to have touched it for purposes of out/safe but can be called out on appeal if before he/she returns to the base?

Steve,

Yes, the ruling for missing 1B is the same as ASA -
BR assumed to have touched it and can be called out
on proper appeal before returning.

In AFA at this time, we just using the double base
as one big base. Probably in near future we will go
with the ASA ruling all the way.

You know, now that you mentioned it, I have not seen
a team from Pa. in any of the AFA tournaments. I have
done five Nats. four 18U and 1 16U and dont recall
seeing a Pa. team. Will look in my old program books
and see.

glen

[Steve M]

Don,
I agree with Dakota. We're not part of any team's coaching staff and teaching a fielder how to play their position is no part of our game responsbilities. Like you said - we just call the game the way it happens to be played, according to the rules of the game. Now, that having been said, I do make myself availble to some of the local high school teams during their early practice sessions.

[oppool]

Steve and Dakota

I agree with everything you all have said and pointed out. I know my point on this doesnt matter and the rule book is our law in umpiring also agree there is no choice but to call the play the way it is written when the runner is past the bag BUT on all the other bases a runner has to pass the bag to have missed the bag and be eligable for appeal but on this double base if the runners foot is on white which doesnt exist for the runner on this type of play we are ruling the runner is not out.

Okay move the same situation to second base on a force the runner is even with second before the throw but their foot is 6"s to the left of the bag. Would you ring her up or say she has overrun the bag so the runner is safe on the force and would have to be tag out??

Thanks for the replies


Don

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by oppool
Steve and Dakota



Okay move the same situation to second base on a force the runner is even with second before the throw but their foot is 6"s to the left of the bag. Would you ring her up or say she has overrun the bag so the runner is safe on the force and would have to be tag out??

Thanks for the replies

Don

If I read your question correctly...and I may not be
doing that, I would say that if both the fielder and
runner have missed second. I dont have an out at
this point. You say their foot is 6"s to left of the
bag, so I am assuming both missed bag...[I know to
ASSuMe makes blab...blab...]

glen

[whiskers_ump]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve M
[B]Glen,
I don't do AFA ball - don't think thre is any in Pa.

This year we had teams from, Colorado, Louisiana,
Florida, Nebraska, Washington, Kansas, Oklahoma,
Ohio, Arkansas, Mississippi, New York, Indiana,
Arizona, Alabama, Missouri, Utah, and Texas.....
However, no Pa.

Jack Hutcherson is the Regional Director for your
area...including Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania,
and West Virginia. [area 7]

glen

[oppool]

I did mean the runners foot only next to the bag at 2nd 6" from touching but the fielder's foot is touching


Don

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by oppool
I did mean the runners foot only next to the bag at 2nd 6" from touching but the fielder's foot is touching


Don

No touchy, no safey...have an out. grin

glen

[Steve M]

I got me an out, too.

This example was not an overrun of the base, you've got F4 with the ball touching the base and R1 standing 6 inches off the base. Now, here's another example that covers the point you wanted to make, Don. On a force play, R1 overruns 2B without touching the base. F4 then gets ball and tags the base - does not tag R1 and R1 returns & stands on 2B. In this case, I got me a safe runner. F4 is gonna have to tag R1 BEFORE R1 returns to 2B from the overrun.

[oppool]

Okay guys I hope I am not making this too confusing in my typing but you all have just made my point about the original play at 1st using the double base bag and if a runner that is touching the white but has not passed the bag should be rung up.

I know we who call slow-pitch have all seen that runner that doesnt run through 1st but just gets to the bag and stops what if they stop touching only the white then the ball is caught by F3 touching the bag do we not see this as the same as the play at 2nd where the runner has not touched the base but has not also passed the base


Penny for thoughts

Don