A fun one I had not seen before...

SC Ump · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 21, 2006, 04:13pm

Last night - 14U ASA

BR hits a dribbler down the 1B line that will surely go foul. She just stands in the box. F2 heads for the ball. F1 heads for the ball. The coaches start yelling, "RUN! RUN!", so the BR starts to run.

The ball stays fair and is just inside the foul line. F2 stops on the line and allows F1 to field the ball. BR has to run around F2 (on the foul side) where F1 is waiting.

> BR was tagged by F1.
> BR committed a "base runner error" for just standing in the box.
> BR had no chance of making 1B...

... except for the obstruction on F2.

Coaches: "Oh, I can't believe you called that." "There's no way that's the rule." "What kind of stuff are you trying to pull."

Confession - I did not call the obstruction right away. After it all happened, I started to turn around back to my PU position and then realized what I had just seen. I guess it was a bit unusually because F2 rarely gets ahead of BR on the base path.

CecilOne · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 21, 2006, 04:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Ump

Last night - 14U ASA
The ball stays fair and is just inside the foul line. F2 stops on the line and allows F1 to field the ball. BR has to run around F2 (on the foul side) where F1 is waiting.

> BR was tagged by F1.
> BR committed a "base runner error" for just standing in the box.
> BR had no chance of making 1B...

... except for the obstruction on F2.

Did BR have a chance at 1st w/o the OBS or did you apply the "between the bases" protection?

SC Ump · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 21, 2006, 07:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Did BR have a chance at 1st w/o the OBS or did you apply the "between the bases" protection?

I do not feel BR would have safely reached 1B if OBS had not been called.

IRISHMAFIA · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 21, 2006, 11:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Ump

Last night - 14U ASA

BR hits a dribbler down the 1B line that will surely go foul. She just stands in the box. F2 heads for the ball. F1 heads for the ball. The coaches start yelling, "RUN! RUN!", so the BR starts to run.

The ball stays fair and is just inside the foul line. F2 stops on the line and allows F1 to field the ball. BR has to run around F2 (on the foul side) where F1 is waiting.

> BR was tagged by F1.
> BR committed a "base runner error" for just standing in the box.
> BR had no chance of making 1B...

... except for the obstruction on F2.

Coaches: "Oh, I can't believe you called that." "There's no way that's the rule." "What kind of stuff are you trying to pull."

Confession - I did not call the obstruction right away. After it all happened, I started to turn around back to my PU position and then realized what I had just seen. I guess it was a bit unusually because F2 rarely gets ahead of BR on the base path.

Call the out, no OBS. The OBS had no affect on the play, hence the BR wasn't impeded.

Not available, but pretty sure there is a case play which would support this ruling. The CB play, I believed involved a runner OBS when forced off 2B, but would never had reached third regardless of the OBS.

orangeump · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 22, 2006, 05:22am

no obstruction, you're out for being dumb. game on. why start more than ya have to?

peace.

tcannizzo · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 22, 2006, 08:49pm

What am I missing here? F2 clearly was guilty of OBS between HP and 1B. Give the offense the option of taking the play, or bring BR back to bat.

Mountaineer · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 22, 2006, 10:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

What am I missing here? F2 clearly was guilty of OBS between HP and 1B. Give the offense the option of taking the play, or bring BR back to bat.

Why would you bring them back to bat? When does the offense get an option on OBS, except by the catcher?

On the OP, why wasn't the runner in the running lane? If she's in fair ball territory and then moves to foul ball territory and gets tagged - I'm good with that. From what I've read, I have an out.

SC Ump · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 23, 2006, 01:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

On the OP, why wasn't the runner in the running lane?

The play happened prior to the runner lane. Pitcher fielding the ball was 15 feet from home, catcher was about 12 feet from home. Catcher was straddling the foul line. Pitcher fielded the ball on the fair side of the line and when BR moved around catcher to avoid contact, pitcher then stepped to the foul side of the foul line and applied the tag.

tcannizzo · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 23, 2006, 06:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Why would you bring them back to bat? When does the offense get an option on OBS, except by the catcher?

On the OP, why wasn't the runner in the running lane? If she's in fair ball territory and then moves to foul ball territory and gets tagged - I'm good with that. From what I've read, I have an out.

I retract the part of the option, but should have written that any runners who might have been on base and advanced on the play will stand, but return the batter to bat for OBS, if in the judgement of umpire the runner would have been out even without the OBS, or award 1B if the OBS caused the runner to be OUT.

I am not aware of any rule that excludes OBS between home and 1B. Therefore return BR to bat as there is nothing else to do at home plate.

In OBS, the basepath is chosen by the runner. I do not see how the 3 foot lane would have any bearing on the ruling - unless BR INT.

CecilOne · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 23, 2006, 09:32am

The 3 foot lane only applies to the BR interfering with a play at 1st, nothing else.

It does seem that "BR has to run around F2 (on the foul side)" is impeding the runner. Then the effect must be judged. At 12 feet from home, with the fielder already having the ball, I agree that the BR would not reach 1st safely.
However, the "between the bases" protection is another issue, and that would make it seem that the BR is awarded 1st, because there is nothing in the rules about returning to bat.

WestMichBlue · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 23, 2006, 03:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The OBS had no affect on the play, hence the BR wasn't impeded.

Whoa! Since when do we start judging the end of the play as to whether or not to call obstruction? I thought that our only judgment was how far to protect the obstructed runner.

Quote:

Not available, but pretty sure there is a case play which would support this ruling. The CB play, I believed involved a runner OBS when forced off 2B, but would never had reached third regardless of the OBS.

I closest I found is Play 8.6.5 which has R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B, ground ball to F1, who throws to F5 for easy force out at 3B. Except that R1 was obstructed by F6! Now there is no way R1 is not out at 3B - but she was obstructed - and you have to call it! Can't send her back to 2B because R2 is there, and B-R is now at 1B. Per the ASA Casebook, you send R1 to 3B!

I see that as identical to our OP. You have to call obstruction. As the batter has ended her time at bat and is now a B-R when obstruction occured, I don't see sending her back to bat again. As dumb as it may look, I think that you have to send the B-R to 1B.

WMB

JEL · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 23, 2006, 06:49pm

[QUOTE=SC Ump]Last night - 14U ASA

The ball stays fair and is just inside the foul line. F2 stops on the line and allows F1 to field the ball. BR has to run around F2 (on the foul side) where F1 is waiting.
QUOTE]

I can't see OBS due to this statement. It appears that F1 and F2 were both legally in the act of fielding a batted ball. F2 ceded the play to F1 (or was just beat out), but she can't then just vanish.

The act of fielding the batted ball is one of the exceptions to OBS. Of course only one player can eventually field the ball, but two players can be in the act of fielding at the same time. Having "seen" the play from this information, I have an out.

SC Ump · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 23, 2006, 07:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEL

It appears that F1 and F2 were both legally in the act of fielding a batted ball.

It is my understanding that in NFHS and ASA only one fielder can be judged to be fielding the ball. Only this fielder is protected against interference. All other fielders would not be in the act of fielding the ball and thus would not be allowed to be in the runner's path. (Sorry for the previously unclear wording.)

chicago11 · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 07:02am

All other fielders would not be in the act of fielding the ball and thus could not obstruct.

Huh? Are you saying that any fielder not fielding the ball is safe from obstruction? So if a BR were rounding 1b with a ball in the outfiled, F3 can get in the way of the BR and not be giulty of obstruction because F3 was not in the act of fielding a ball? I admit, I am not a umpire, bur this seems to be a definite error.

CecilOne · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 24, 2006, 08:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Ump

It is my understanding that in NFHS and ASA only one fielder can be judged to be fielding the ball. Only this fielder is protected against interference.

me too

But "All other fielders would not be in the act of fielding the ball and thus could not obstruct" might be a typo.