NFHS uniform question

[shipwreck]

Can someone tell me if NFHS rule 3-2-6 has a typo or what are they trying to say? It says "For individual players, uniform sleeve lengths may vary. However, sleeves of each individual player shall be approximately the same length and shall not be raged, frayed or slit".
To me this is a VERY hard thing to see what they mean. I think they have used the word individual too many times. Dave

[SC Ump]

"For individual players, uniform sleeve lengths may vary" means... B1 could wear long sleeves and B2 could wear short sleeves and B3 could wear 3/4 length sleeves.

"Sleeves of each individual player shall be approximately the same length" means... B1 cannot have the sleeve on her left arm long and the sleeve on her right arm short.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

"For individual players, uniform sleeve lengths may vary" means... B1 could wear long sleeves and B2 could wear short sleeves and B3 could wear 3/4 length sleeves.

"Sleeves of each individual player shall be approximately the same length" means... B1 cannot have the sleeve on her left arm long and the sleeve on her right arm short.

When I read that rule (BTW, there was a question on the test from it) I understood it to mean that it was okay for the lengths to vary on each player but the team had to be uniform. A medium sleeve would come just above the elbow on a bigger girl and it would fall to just above the wrist on a smaller girl. Yet, both girls are wearing the medium sleeve. That would be a good question for the NHFS forum.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

"For individual players, uniform sleeve lengths may vary" means... B1 could wear long sleeves and B2 could wear short sleeves and B3 could wear 3/4 length sleeves.

"Sleeves of each individual player shall be approximately the same length" means... B1 cannot have the sleeve on her left arm long and the sleeve on her right arm short.

From my interpretation, Dan you are 100% correct.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

That would be a good question for the NHFS forum.

My opinion from the NFHS Forum:

Well, it is not a surprise. The uniform rule has read that way for nearly 30 years. Back then most girls wore baseball style uniforms, though some (from warm weather states?) were wearing short sleeve shirts.

I think this rule allowed that change, but states that whatever sleeve length you have, they all must be approximately the same.

Why not exactly all the same, when the same manufacturer makes the shirts? Probably, due to availability of shirts each year, a small girl could get a medium shirt and the sleeve might end at her elbow. Whereas the sleeve end of a shirt correctly sized for a player may end halfway between the elbow and shoulder.

But they are all short-sleeved shirts and thus all the players are legal.


WMB

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

My opinion from the NFHS Forum:

Well, it is not a surprise. The uniform rule has read that way for nearly 30 years. Back then most girls wore baseball style uniforms, though some (from warm weather states?) were wearing short sleeve shirts.

I think this rule allowed that change, but states that whatever sleeve length you have, they all must be approximately the same.

Why not exactly all the same, when the same manufacturer makes the shirts? Probably, due to availability of shirts each year, a small girl could get a medium shirt and the sleeve might end at her elbow. Whereas the sleeve end of a shirt correctly sized for a player may end halfway between the elbow and shoulder.

But they are all short-sleeved shirts and thus all the players are legal.


WMB

I respectfully disagree with you on this. The rule in question, 3.2.6 states:

For INDIVIDUAL players, uniform sleeve lengths may vary.

To me, this means that each individual player can dictate whether they are cold or hot and can wear sleeve lengths to their INDIVIDUAL tastes.

The rule contiues:
However, sleeves of EACH INDIVIDUAL player shall be approximately the same length and shall not be ragged, frayed or slit.

Again, to me, this says that while they can determine their own sleeve length, they can't have a long sleeve on the right arm and a short one on the left arm.

This rule does NOT (IMO) discuss the TEAM'S sleeve length - but the INDIVIDUAL.

If you go up to 3.2.1 it states something about Uniforms of all team members which is clearly different verbage from the words individual players.

I promise you in my game, if a girl wants to wear long sleeves and another girl on the same team wants to wear short - by my interpretation of the rule, I have no problem.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

I respectfully disagree with you on this. The rule in question, 3.2.6 states:

For INDIVIDUAL players, uniform sleeve lengths may vary.

To me, this means that each individual player can dictate whether they are cold or hot and can wear sleeve lengths to their INDIVIDUAL tastes.

The rule contiues:
However, sleeves of EACH INDIVIDUAL player shall be approximately the same length and shall not be ragged, frayed or slit.

Again, to me, this says that while they can determine their own sleeve length, they can't have a long sleeve on the right arm and a short one on the left arm.

This rule does NOT (IMO) discuss the TEAM'S sleeve length - but the INDIVIDUAL.

If you go up to 3.2.1 it states something about Uniforms of all team members which is clearly different verbage from the words individual players.

I promise you in my game, if a girl wants to wear long sleeves and another girl on the same team wants to wear short - by my interpretation of the rule, I have no problem.

Larry,
I obviously agree w/ WMB since that is how I read it.
Did you know Al Strigle??

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

Larry,
I obviously agree w/ WMB since that is how I read it.
Did you know Al Strigle??

I don't even see how you can read it that way. It says individual player, how can that be interpreted as a team? It would say, sleeve lengths for each team member must be the same length. Since it doesn't read that way, I am puzzled as to how you can read "team" into that.

Al Strigle? That came out of left field - what in the world would cause you to ask that? I did know him, not well though. We went to church together and he was quite a bit older than I was. I played some church softball with him, but that was the extent of it. How did you know him and again, why would you ask me that (just curious)?

[tcblue13]

When we lived in Northern VA, Al and Renee' daughter was my wife's best friend and their granddaughter was my daughter's best friend. I got to know them through their visits. I asked the question because Al was a Baseball umpire so I thought you might know him. He is greatly missed as he was like a granddad to my daughters as well.

Sorry to catch you out of left field. Next time I will PM you

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

When we lived in Northern VA, Al and Renee' daughter was my wife's best friend and their granddaughter was my daughter's best friend. I got to know them through their visits. I asked the question because Al was a Baseball umpire so I thought you might know him. He is greatly missed as he was like a granddad to my daughters as well.

Sorry to catch you out of left field. Next time I will PM you

I didn't know he was an umpire. When I knew him I was not umpiring. He was a great guy from what little I knew him. Tragic what happened.

[tcblue13]

I agree but that is how Al lived. Life was something to be enjoyed to the very end and he did.

[CecilOne]

This sleeve length rule is all about appearance, not allowing the sport to look like a sandlot game. I agree there is no prohibition against short and long sleeves on the same team. Pitchers often wear a long sleeve when others do not. No problem with one player's medium size shirt fitting differently than another. There are 4-5 shirt sizes and 10-15 player sizes on most teams.

The ragged, frayed or slit part is obvious and the equal length on an individual player is an extension of that although I don't remember a violation example.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

This sleeve length rule is all about appearance, not allowing the sport to look like a sandlot game. I agree there is no prohibition against short and long sleeves on the same team. Pitchers often wear a long sleeve when others do not. No problem with one player's medium size shirt fitting differently than another. There are 4-5 shirt sizes and 10-15 player sizes on most teams.

The ragged, frayed or slit part is obvious and the equal length on an individual player is an extension of that although I don't remember a violation example.

OMG! Did someone actually agree with me?? I'm so happy because I hate it when I'm the only one that's right!

[WestMichBlue]

"For individual players, uniform sleeve lengths may vary. However, sleeves of each individual player shall be approximately the same length and shall not be ragged, frayed or slit".

"Uniform sleeve lengths may vary." May vary from what? From one individual play on a team to another individual player on the same team? Or from the left arm to the right arm of an same individual player.

Does "may vary" indicate that you have permission to be different? Or does it mean that sleeve lengths do not need to be precisely the same length within a tolerance of (1/4") (1/32") (.0001")?

If it means they do not have to be precisely the same, does not the next sentence qualify that by saying, "Yes, you are allowed some varriance, but they must be approximately the same?"

I still say that you must go back to the 1970's when this rule was written (exactly as you see it in 2006) and ask yourself what were the rules makers trying to achieve. Remember that back then girls wore baseball uniforms - long sleeve shirts, pin-stripe pants, and stirrup sox.

Don't you think that as girls were starting to change uniforms, that the NFHS was trying to retain uniformity across the team? That they didn't want long sleeve and short sleeve mixed on the same team. Or do you really think they were worried about a girl taking pinking shears to one sleeve?

WMB

[Mountaineer]

[quote=WestMichBlue]

"For individual players, uniform sleeve lengths may vary. However, sleeves of each individual player shall be approximately the same length and shall not be ragged, frayed or slit".[/quote/

"Uniform sleeve lengths may vary." May vary from what? From one individual play on a team to another individual player on the same team? Or from the left arm to the right arm of an same individual player.

Does "may vary" indicate that you have permission to be different? Or does it mean that sleeve lengths do not need to be precisely the same length within a tolerance of (1/4") (1/32") (.0001")?

If it means they do not have to be precisely the same, does not the next sentence qualify that by saying, "Yes, you are allowed some varriance, but they must be approximately the same?"

I still say that you must go back to the 1970's when this rule was written (exactly as you see it in 2006) and ask yourself what were the rules makers trying to achieve. Remember that back then girls wore baseball uniforms - long sleeve shirts, pin-stripe pants, and stirrup sox.

Don't you think that as girls were starting to change uniforms, that the NFHS was trying to retain uniformity across the team? That they didn't want long sleeve and short sleeve mixed on the same team. Or do you really think they were worried about a girl taking pinking shears to one sleeve?

WMB

Nope, I think they were worried about not allowing girls to have different tastes. Cat wears long sleeves even in the most rigid heat - that's what she prefers. I am sure that no one else on the team wants to wear that. I think it is entirely permissible under the rule in question. I've seen kids want to wear a short sleeve on one arm and no sleeve on on the other. That is what is not allowed. The uniformity across the team is accomplished by the UNIFORM. I'm confused why there is no rule regarding sock lengths . . . I mean if uniformity is what they are after.