Rule on this one.

[DSUAUmpire]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

There is no force out at first nullifying the runs. Any baserunner who crossed the plate before the appeal or the out/ejection would score and the the run would stay on the books.

Once a runner has crossed a base he is assumed to have touched that base until an appeal is made.

2 outs with R1 on 3rd, B2 hits a fast grounder to right field. B2 crosses the base (but does not touch the orange part of the bag) before the throw from right field reaches F3 you MUST call B2 safe. During this time R1 scores.

As B2 walks back to first base, she is tagged by the first baseman who appeals she didn't touch the base. Run scores and the inning counts.

Not sure what casebook you are looking at. 2005-2006 ASA casebok 10.8.1 is throwing the bat in anger. Regardless this play as posted the BR should have been ejected for USC for crashing into the catcher, however, since the catcher did not have the ball I stand by my call that he should not have been called out.

[DSUAUmpire]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA

That cannot be right. No runs can score if the third out is a result of the BR not reaching 1B safely (5.5.B.1, CB 5.5-8, 5.5-9 & 5.5-10)

Agree, this out would be the result of a force no runs.
Another example BR reaches 1st, steps of the base towards home, ball is thrown to F3 who steps on the base. force is re-instated and BR is out.

[blu_bawls]

The batter got to first base safely and passed the base. Once a better has passed a base he/she is assumed to have touched it and can only be called out on an appeal. Any runs scored prior to the appeal stand.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DSUAUmpire

Not sure what casebook you are looking at. 2005-2006 ASA casebok 10.8.1 is throwing the bat in anger. Regardless this play as posted the BR should have been ejected for USC for crashing into the catcher, however, since the catcher did not have the ball I stand by my call that he should not have been called out.

The ruling for this play is as noted for "flagrant misconduct". In this case, the throwing of the bat in anger just happened to be the vehicle used to come to that conclusion.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

The batter got to first base safely and passed the base. Once a better has passed a base he/she is assumed to have touched it and can only be called out on an appeal. Any runs scored prior to the appeal stand.

Sorry, speaking ASA, you are wrong. Previous citations apply.

[blu_bawls]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA

That cannot be right. No runs can score if the third out is a result of the BR not reaching 1B safely (5.5.B.1, CB 5.5-8, 5.5-9 & 5.5-10)

Reaching and touching the base are two different things.

Once the batter crossed first and went to second he has already reached first base. Touching it only matters if they appeal it. A runner can hit a home run a not touch any base and the run counts until someone appeals that the batter missed a base.

The fourth out advantage gives the defense the opportunity to take an out on appeal that would benefit them.

If both 1R on Second and R2 on third tag up and leave early on a second out catch to the outfield the defense can appeal R1 leaving early and get the third out but then can appeal R2 leaving early and ge tthat call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by blu_bawls

Reaching and touching the base are two different things.

Once the batter crossed first and went to second he has already reached first base. Touching it only matters if they appeal it. A runner can hit a home run a not touch any base and the run counts until someone appeals that the batter missed a base.

So far, you are proving my point.

The fourth out advantage gives the defense the opportunity to take an out on appeal that would benefit them.

NOT DISCUSSING A FOURTH OUT APPEAL HERE!

We are discussing your thread-hijacking scenario of:

2 outs with R1 on 3rd, B2 hits a fast grounder to right field. B2 crosses the base (but does not touch the orange part of the bag) before the throw from right field reaches F3 you MUST call B2 safe. During this time R1 scores.

As B2 walks back to first base, she is tagged by the first baseman who appeals she didn't touch the base. Run scores and the inning counts.

The runner isn't required to touch the orange part of the base unless there is a play when approaching the base, so if there is an appeal as you are suggesting, it must be for missing 1B. This appeal is NOT a timing play and any runs would not count, citations still apply.

If both 1R on Second and R2 on third tag up and leave early on a second out catch to the outfield the defense can appeal R1 leaving early and get the third out but then can appeal R2 leaving early and ge tthat call.

You just moved to a third scenario which has nothing to do with a force out.

Obviously, your mind is set, so I'm not going to waste any more time on this one.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by DSUAUmpire

Not sure what casebook you are looking at. 2005-2006 ASA casebok 10.8.1 is throwing the bat in anger. Regardless this play as posted the BR should have been ejected for USC for crashing into the catcher, however, since the catcher did not have the ball I stand by my call that he should not have been called out.

Look at the ruling... what is the out for?

Flagrant misconduct (not throwing the bat in anger). Throwing the bat in anger is one example of flagrant misconduct. The actions of the runner in the play we are discussing is another example of flagrant misconduct.

[Dakota]

blu-bawls, you seem to be under the incorrect assumption that all appeals for the 3rd out are timing plays. They are not.

Appealing the BR for missing 1B is not a timing play. If that is the 3rd out, no runs will score, regardless of when the appeal is made relative to other runners crossing home.

Same for appealing any other runner for missing a base to which they were forced, as long as (speaking ASA) the force has not been removed at the time of the appeal.

No runs can ever score when the 3rd out of the inning are on the BR before reaching 1B, and an appeal of the BR missing 1B has the same effect. The BR did not safely reach 1B due to the appeal. If that appeal is the 3rd out, no runs score.

I know I've repeated myself in this thread. You seemed to need it.

[LIIRISHMAN]

Originally Posted by Dakota

blu-bawls, you seem to be under the incorrect assumption that all appeals for the 3rd out are timing plays. They are not.

Appealing the BR for missing 1B is not a timing play. If that is the 3rd out, no runs will score, regardless of when the appeal is made relative to other runners crossing home.

Same for appealing any other runner for missing a base to which they were forced, as long as (speaking ASA) the force has not been removed at the time of the appeal.

No runs can ever score when the 3rd out of the inning are on the BR before reaching 1B, and an appeal of the BR missing 1B has the same effect. The BR did not safely reach 1B due to the appeal. If that appeal is the 3rd out, no runs score.

I know I've repeated myself in this thread. You seemed to need it.

THere's no way you can allow any runs to score after a proper appeal of the B/R missing 1st base.You would have a riot on your hands and as my UIC would say "get your car keys ready " Runner is out on appeal and ejection stands.

[greymule]

I was in Pennsylvania yesterday umpiring a 16u "showcase" from 7:45 a.m. to 8:10 p.m. There were zillions of teams (and illegal bats) from all over the country. I personally had teams from, besides the home state, Virginia, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Jersey, Illinois, and Colorado. Seven game slots, and I did six, since the third guy in our crew had to leave early and officiate a women's professional football game in Philadelphia.

So I didn't check the board until now.

I don't see any difference in effect between a third out appeal for missing 1B and (as in the case book play with the changed ruling) a third out for failing to reach 1B, however belated such a third out might be. But it's the concept of fourth out on the BR at 1B that troubles me. If the guy who crashes is called out and does not score, then the miss of 1B, even if appealed, is irrelevant, since a fourth out nullifies a run only on a runner who has scored. But to avoid invoking 10-1-L, let's just say the BR is tagged out at home. Three outs, and the appeal at 1B does not nullify any runs. F2 would have to know not to tag the BR but instead to make sure the appeal at 1B was the third, not the fourth, out. (I can hear F2 after he finds out that the fourth out at 1B nullifies no runs: "Open your eyes, Blue! I missed him by a mile at the plate. He scored easy! And didn't you see me drop the ball?") The BR would be smart not to score, but to get himself declared the third out in some way that 10-1-L could not reverse.

I must say I'm puzzled at the ASA rule change of 2003. They were in line with every other code, so why change anything? Why not allow a fourth out 1B, either an appeal for a miss or a simple out for failure to reach to reach 1B, solely because that runner did not score?

---

Another example BR reaches 1st, steps of the base towards home, ball is thrown to F3 who steps on the base. force is re-instated and BR is out.

I don't know that ASA has ever ruled on that play, but the "force" at 1B is not reinstated in other codes. In OBR, for instance, that runner must be tagged.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

Another example BR reaches 1st, steps of the base towards home, ball is thrown to F3 who steps on the base. force is re-instated and BR is out.

I don't know that ASA has ever ruled on that play, but the "force" at 1B is not reinstated in other codes. In OBR, for instance, that runner must be tagged.

ASA addressed this in April's clarifications:

http://www.asasoftball.com/umpires/c...s_2006_apr.asp

[greymule]

RE: reinstated force at 1B

Thanks for the link to that clarification. I can now rest easier, as for many years I had lost sleep for having called a BR out on the following play:

BR hit a weak fly ball to short RF and ran to 1B (bat in hand). When he saw F10 about to make the catch, he turned and trotted back down the 1B line. Of course, F10 dropped the ball, but he picked it up and threw to 1B before BR could get back to the bag. I called the BR out based on the concept of reinstated "force." However, in a later discussion of how to handle this play in OBR, I learned that because the BR had not actually "occupied" a preceding base, it was technically not a force play. Applying the same reasoning to softball, I figured that since a force can't be reinstated if it wasn't a force in the first place, I had blown the call. Luckily, the team I thought I had robbed lost by a large margin, so I haven't lived with an actual game outcome on my conscience ever since.

However, I'm now glad to know I was right.

Just don't tell me now that ASA's rule was different 25 years ago.

[bluezebra]

"...BR, though he had a clear path to home plate, deliberately crashes F2, knocking him 15 feet..."

If I'm the Varsity football head coach, I've got me a new blocking back.

Bob