ASA 10 and Under

[Ump_Dan]

Had a play in a ten and under game in the past tournament I would like the know what the ASA ruling might be.

The Situation:
ASA rules
Cold plate
Runner on first, no outs.
Catcher attempts a pick-off of the runner at first.
Ball goes off F3 glove out of bounds.
I award the runner two bases.
Defensive coach challenges saying that the ASA one base per pitch rule applies, so the runner should get only second.
UIC agrees and places the runner at second.

It had no impact on the game because the runner later advances and scores.

This a play that could reasonably happen again so I would like to know if this is the proper application of the ASA 10 and under rules.

[Dakota]

The proper ASA ruling is 2 bases from the position of the runner at the time of the throw. IOW, 3B.

Refer your UIC to ASA Rule 8-4-G-5.

[tcblue13]

Sounds like a local rule
I do some 10u ball where there is a 1 base limit and you can't have home on a PB. Is that what you mean by cold plate??

[Ump_Dan]

Cold Plate usually refers to - cannot steal home, even if the runner on third or any other base is played on.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by Ump_Dan

Cold Plate usually refers to - cannot steal home, even if the runner on third or any other base is played on.

That's what I thought

In my house, the cold plate is the food my wife fixed for me to eat when I get home from the game and supper is over.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

Sounds like a local rule

Obviously I don't know... but this does not sound like a local rule to me. It sounds to me like an umpire who was UICing a 10U tournament, but who was bamboozled by a coach. Base awards are not subject to the "one base per pitch" rule any more than advancing on a batted ball is.

I admit it COULD be a local or even a ground rule. I was doing a tournament that had several age levels in it, including 10U. The UIC asked me to observe one of his newer umpires during my breaks. This new umpire was doing 10U. The field had a very short, narrow backstop only. No other fencing. While I was watching, several passed balls / wild pitches went out of play with runners on base, including a runner on 3rd. The new umpire did not advance the runners the required 1 base. Neither coach complained.

Later, in discussing this with the UIC, I told him that given the field condition, and the level of play, that we could certainly anticipate a fairly large number of pitched balls going out of play, and therefore I recommended that a ground rule be put into place that there would be no base award from 3rd to home on a pitched ball out of play. He discussed it with the TD, and they did put that ground rule into effect.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Let me add a few thoughts here.

Ump Dan, if you are playing ASA rules, then you are playing ASA rules. "Cold plate" is a redundant statement; you are playing ASA 10U rules.

My second point is that Dakota nailed it; it is quite clear in the ASA rulebook, that awarded bases are applied to all runners. Therefore, the award for an overthrow into dead ball territory supercedes the "one base per pitch if not hit" rule.

Third point, that Ump Dan might clarify, is that many of us are assuming that UIC in his post means that the team protested the ruling, and a tournament UIC then made an incorrect ruling. I'm not sure I read that; I'm thinking that he means the PU, also sometimes referred to as the UIC. I can say that, as a UIC, before I keep someone's money, I show them in the rulebook (assuming the ruling is in the rulebook); in this case, that would backfire, since the correct ruling is right there in the middle of the one and only section of 10U FP running rules.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Either the UIC is not knowledgable of the rules (and shouldn't be a UIC for anything) and/or was intimidated by the coach....

or there was a ground rule put into effect without your knowledge.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Either the UIC is not knowledgable of the rules (and shouldn't be a UIC for anything) and/or was intimidated by the coach....

or there was a ground rule put into effect without your knowledge.

Let me add on, too (assuming it was a tournament UIC).

Many times, in local tournaments, the UIC is one of the "more senior" umpires in an association. That isn't always a good rules person; sometimes is no more than the glorified assigning or booking person. And this person, by virtue of his seniority, probably knows even less about the 10U special rules than the newbies who are always working it. It's a shame, but most won't even look at those special rules.

[CecilOne]

Where do you all draw the line between an overthrow (two bases) and a ball getting away from a fielder (one base)?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Where do you all draw the line between an overthrow (two bases) and a ball getting away from a fielder (one base)?

A ball getting away from a fielder must first be in the possession of that fielder, with possession then lost (for example, on attempting a sweep tag), and the timing of the one base award is based on the runners' last base touched when the ball enters dead ball territory.

An overthrow is never in possession after being thrown, and the two base award is based on runners' location at the time the throw is made.

In most cases, I suspect the end result would be the same.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

A ball getting away from a fielder must first be in the possession of that fielder, with possession then lost (for example, on attempting a sweep tag), and the timing of the one base award is based on the runners' last base touched when the ball enters dead ball territory.

An overthrow is never in possession after being thrown, and the two base award is based on runners' location at the time the throw is made.

In most cases, I suspect the end result would be the same.

I agree and I guess "Ball goes off F3 glove out of bounds" implied no possession.