TWP - 2 on same base (ASA)

[Dakota]

ASA rules (since NFHS makes it too easy).

Bases loaded. Bunted ball. Fielded too late for a play on BR. BR on 1st. R3 and R2 advance, but R1 does not. Ball back to F1. Nobody does anything.

(cue the Jepopardy music...buzzer sounds...) Now what?

[AtlUmpSteve]

This one, we have to wait forever; until someone makes a play. This is a case where a force play exists, and by calling time, we can neither award the base not yet reached, nor leave R1 where R1 is.

Stand to the side, keep pointing fair, keep the on deck batter out of play, refuse any request for time out ...... , and wait. It may take a moment, or two, or more, but someone will figure this one out.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

...but someone will figure this one out.

We hope!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

This one, we have to wait forever; until someone makes a play. This is a case where a force play exists, and by calling time, we can neither award the base not yet reached, nor leave R1 where R1 is.

Stand to the side, keep pointing fair, keep the on deck batter out of play, refuse any request for time out ...... , and wait. It may take a moment, or two, or more, but someone will figure this one out.

This is what I was thinking in that 2 runners on 2nd topic.

[mcrowder]

Cecil, in the other topic, offense does not have a legal remedy - R1 would be out for LBR if she returned to 1st. In this one, however, play has not yet finished.

I would like to hear from Mike on this one as to why, (rulewise), if R1 stayed on first and the ball came to the circle, that we would not rule R1 out when she finally did start running to 2nd.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

...if R1 stayed on third and the ball came to the circle, that we would not rule R1 out when she finally did start running to home.

Ahem... softball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

ASA rules (since NFHS makes it too easy).

Bases loaded. Bunted ball. Fielded too late for a play on BR. BR on 1st. R3 and R2 advance, but R1 does not. Ball back to F1. Nobody does anything.

(cue the Jepopardy music...buzzer sounds...) Now what?

As the umpire, you stand behind the plate and call the pitcher to come to you. When she steps on the plate, you call the out!!!!!

Serious, I'm right with Steve on this. The umpire cannot safely advance a runner to an base not earned. There is no rule to allow the umpire to proceed in any manner other than waiting for a play. BTW, while standing to the side, I'm going to be staring at 3B If either coach says anything as to why the delay, I'll just tell them, "Just waiting, Coach".

Or you can call to the 3B coach, "Yo, coach. What's that on your runner's back?" When s/he touches her to look, BANG!, runner assistance.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by Dakota

ASA rules (since NFHS makes it too easy).

What's the NFHS ruling? Seems like I've read that the umpire calls time and fixes the situation. Am I right?

[TwoBits]

Never mind...just read the answer on another thread.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

What's the NFHS ruling? Seems like I've read that the umpire calls time and fixes the situation. Am I right?

After a reasonable time waiting on a play, the umpire kills the play and declares the runner (R1) out. Case play 8.3.3-B, although I posted this one mostly for fun and I'm not 100% sure the NFHS case play applies to a force situation (the case play was with multiple runners on base, a trailing runner steals, but the runner ahead stays put, resulting in 2 runners on the same base).

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

This one, we have to wait forever;

So, you wait.... R1 still at third.... pitcher still with the ball in the circle not making a play... and FINALLY, R1 realizes and leaves 3rd base to run home.

Is it a dead ball with R1 declared out on the LBR?

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

So, you wait.... R1 still at third.... pitcher still with the ball in the circle not making a play... and FINALLY, R1 realizes and leaves 3rd base to run home.

Is it a dead ball with R1 declared out on the LBR?

I wouldn't think that LBR applies since she is forced to go home

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

So, you wait.... R1 still at third.... pitcher still with the ball in the circle not making a play... and FINALLY, R1 realizes and leaves 3rd base to run home.

Is it a dead ball with R1 declared out on the LBR?

No. The action caused by a batted ball has yet to be resolved.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No. The action caused by a batted ball has yet to be resolved.

Mike, that seems to conflict with the verbiage in the LBR. “..will be in effect when the ball is live for all runners , the BR has touched 1B and F1 has possession…in the circle”.

It does not say “until all runners have reached the base to which forced or have been put out”.

So if the LBR is in effect, and R1 is on a base (the base she is being forced to vacate) when F1 receives the ball in the circle then R1 cannot per 8-7-T-2 leave that base.

I understand the logic that since the runner never ran, the play is not over. But the rules seem to have this runner trapped. The way the words read, it sounds like R1 must now wait for the defense to begin making a play on her before she tries to advance to avoid the LBR.

Is the interpretation basically that R1 is not “on a base” if she is standing on a base she is forced to vacate? But then if that is true you could call her out for standing on the base she needs to vacate on an LBR violation as soon as the ball is in the circle and the runner is not running.

In the other “2 runners on one base” play with two runners on 2B, where there was no force and F1 has the ball in the circle then the trail runner decides to run back to 1B we had determined that would be an LBR out. Why are these two different under the LBR?

[AtlUmpSteve]

The interpretation, as I understand it, Ernie, is that F1 is not yet a pitcher as long as runners are required to advance on the batted ball; F1 has the same status as any other defensive player in this case, one who is making a play (sooner or later, in this case).

Using that interpretation, the LBR cannot yet be in affect in this case. In the other play, no runner is required to advance.

Similarly, when F1 fields a batted ball, she is not immediately a pitcher; there is a presumption that runners that must advance, may, and runners that must return, may.