D3K & Leading off

[richez]

We had two situations last night which we hope you can clarification for us.

1) D3K - of course. Here's the situation: less than 2 outs, bases loaded, strike three is dropped. Is the batter not automatically out because 1st was occupied and there were less than two outs? The umpire ruled when the ball was dropped and went past the catcher, all runners tried to steal the next base, which meant 1st wasn't occupied, and that is why the BR wasn't automatically out. As I understand it, if 1st is occupied with less than 2 outs when the ball is pitched, and D3K occurs, the batter is out, correct?

2) Leading off or Look Back Rule: runner on 3rd, batter took ball 4, but went slowly to 1st, pitcher received ball and was in possession of ball while in the circle, the BR then touched 1st while rounding toward 2nd and she stopped
once, and immediately went back to 1st. Opposing coach yelled "leading off" and the ump called her out. My interpretation is, even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the batter/runner is allowed to round 1st, make one stop, and then must immediately continue to 2nd or go back to 1st.
The coach argued the BR must hit 1st before the ball is in the pitcher's possession in the circle. If that is true, then everyone leads off because we all steal 2nd from a walk with a runner on 3rd, and usually the pitcher has the ball before the BR touches 1st. He also stated the BR is not allowed one stop, before immediately going to 2nd or returning to 1st.

Thanks for your help and time, RICHEZ

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Your interpretation is correct on both counts.

Joel

[richez]

Thanks for the clarification. Any other opinions out there?

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by richez

2) . . .The coach argued the BR must hit 1st before the ball is in the pitcher's possession in the circle. If that is true, then everyone leads off because we all steal 2nd from a walk with a runner on 3rd, and usually the pitcher has the ball before the BR touches 1st. He also stated the BR is not allowed one stop, before immediately going to 2nd or returning to 1st.

Both of your interps are correct.

The only thing that comes remotley close to this is that the LBR for any baserunners is not in effect until BR reaches 1st base. This means that the runners on 2nd or 3rd are free to do whatever they want - with the ball in the circle - prior to BR reaching 1st. This is one reason (of many) why plate mechanics include watching BR all the way to 1st.

[shipwreck]

Also remember that the runner on third cannot just stand there off the base and watch for very long to see what is going to happen with the batter/runner. As soon as the batter/runner reaches first, the LBR is on for all runners. So if the runner that is off of third is standing there and hopes that the pitcher makes a play on the batter/runner but no play is made or the pitcher doesn't act like they are going to make a play, they should be called out. Dave

[reccer]

Coach here, My experience is that 90% of coaches think the runner is out if she stops between the bases with the ball in the circle. Experienced Blues know the rule but are calling the out if the runner goes more than say 10 feet past the base and then stops and then restarts

If you are trying to advance your batter runner to second with runner on third and ball 4 to the batter, there will be no margin for error allowed by the Blue if your runners don't carry out the play perfectly. If the batter-runner heads for 2 and then stops and then restarts, she will be rung up. One Mississippi Two Mississippi becomes abreviated to Bam! (they don't like the squirrelly (sp?) nature of the ball 4 play).

On batted balls, Blues are generally more patient with allowing the runner to round the bags and then locate the ball.

I understand the rule, but I also understand the spirit of the rule, and I agree with the way the local Blues are enforcing the LBR.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by reccer

Coach here, My experience is that 90% of coaches think the runner is out if she stops between the bases with the ball in the circle. Experienced Blues know the rule but are calling the out if the runner goes more than say 10 feet past the base and then stops and then restarts

If you are trying to advance your batter runner to second with runner on third and ball 4 to the batter, there will be no margin for error allowed by the Blue if your runners don't carry out the play perfectly. If the batter-runner heads for 2 and then stops and then restarts, she will be rung up. One Mississippi Two Mississippi becomes abreviated to Bam! (they don't like the squirrelly (sp?) nature of the ball 4 play).

On batted balls, Blues are generally more patient with allowing the runner to round the bags and then locate the ball.

I understand the rule, but I also understand the spirit of the rule, and I agree with the way the local Blues are enforcing the LBR.

How about
- a rule is a rule is a rule
- a BR is a BR is a BR
without the inconsistency? Worse yet, personal dislikes.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by richez

We had two situations last night which we hope you can clarification for us.

1) D3K - of course. Here's the situation: less than 2 outs, bases loaded, strike three is dropped. Is the batter not automatically out because 1st was occupied and there were less than two outs? The umpire ruled when the ball was dropped and went past the catcher, all runners tried to steal the next base, which meant 1st wasn't occupied, and that is why the BR wasn't automatically out. As I understand it, if 1st is occupied with less than 2 outs when the ball is pitched, and D3K occurs, the batter is out, correct?

With Less than 2 outs and first base occupied, BR is automatically out on an uncaught strike 3. However, the runners on base may advance at their own risk.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by reccer

Experienced Blues know the rule but are calling the out if the runner goes more than say 10 feet past the base and then stops and then restarts.

Then they don't know the rule. This is wrong.

If you are trying to advance your batter runner to second with runner on third and ball 4 to the batter, there will be no margin for error allowed by the Blue if your runners don't carry out the play perfectly. If the batter-runner heads for 2 and then stops and then restarts, she will be rung up. One Mississippi Two Mississippi becomes abreviated to Bam! (they don't like the squirrelly (sp?) nature of the ball 4 play).

Again - she CAN stop and restart. If your umpires are doing as you describe, they need to be educated. Calling them experienced seems to be a stretch. In fact, she can go 1 step short of 2nd, stop, and return all the way to first. Totally legal.

On batted balls, Blues are generally more patient with allowing the runner to round the bags and then locate the ball.

I find that my patience has nothing to do with it.

I understand the rule, but I also understand the spirit of the rule, and I agree with the way the local Blues are enforcing the LBR.

Even though they are enforcing it incorrectly? Horrid.

[CecilOne]

The spirit/intent of the rule is to keep runners from pretending to run, delaying the game, taking baseball style leads, etc.; not to prevent legitimate baserunning and certainly not as a "gotcha" out. As I say on every post "Officiating takes more than OJT".

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Even though they are enforcing it incorrectly? Horrid.

Completely agree. Giving less time to round and locate the ball on a walk is purely umpire prejudice. The umpire doesn't like it, so he dings the runner. I like your adjective. Horrid.

[reccer]

When she is virtually crawling ever so slowly (but within the rules), clapping her hands, verbally taunting the pitcher........ that is an abuse of the LBR

I run this play every chance I have because I have a fast team and we work on this play offensive/defensive repeatedly during practice. We don't walk and taunt because I want my batter-runner to get to second as quickly as possible (under control) so that my runner at 3 doesn't have to go all the way back to the bag.

Even at 14U, we have a high success rate of getting the runner home when the Blues leave us alone. However, as I stated earlier, their triggers are a whole lot quicker than if it were a batted ball.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by reccer

When she is virtually crawling ever so slowly (but within the rules), clapping her hands, verbally taunting the pitcher........ that is an abuse of the LBR

I run this play every chance I have because I have a fast team and we work on this play offensive/defensive repeatedly during practice. We don't walk and taunt because I want my batter-runner to get to second as quickly as possible (under control) so that my runner at 3 doesn't have to go all the way back to the bag.

Even at 14U, we have a high success rate of getting the runner home when the Blues leave us alone. However, as I stated earlier, their triggers are a whole lot quicker than if it were a batted ball.

The rule only deals with moving/stopping, no regard for speed, crawling or not. It might be abuse of the RCR, but that's the rule. The answer is as they described, "triggers are a whole lot quicker than if it were a batted ball " is horrid.

[tcblue13]

R1 on third
1 out
BR draws BB
F2 returns ball to F1 in circle
BR rounds first and runs to 2B
LBR in effect when BR touches 1B
F1 makes no play
R1 waits 3 feet down the line to see what F1 is going to do.
If R1 does not either retreat or advance when BR touches first, she is out.

I don't know why that is such an epiphany. I just makes sense. It is like the light just came on though.

If you ring her up before BR reached 2B then you send BR back to 1B on the DB

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

If you ring her up before BR reached 2B then you send BR back to 1B on the DB

You got it.

One important note I've seen screwed up. You say it right there. If the out occurs before BR reaches 2B, BR goes back to 1B. I've seen it (often) called where BR is sent to second base if she was "halfway". If she's INCHES away from 2B, she goes back.