DEFO/DP/Flex explanation

[BGM]

Greetings all --

The link I had to a pretty comprehensive article describing (in clearer more understandable language than the ASA rule book) the basics as well as finer points of the ASA/JO DEFO/DP substitution rules has become a dead end, and I can't even recall where the link took me.

Does anyone here have any direction to a good, basic primer on the hows and whys of ASA specifically girls fastpitch rules about these confusing substitution rules?

Thanks.

BGM

[CecilOne]

Try http://www.cactusumpires.com/pdf/lin...t-ASA-NFHS.ppt


If that doesn't help, ask a question about a specific portion.

[whiskers_ump]

Go here:

http://eteamz.active.com/softballump...stoDP-FLEX.htm

CecilOne has helped

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump

Go here:

http://eteamz.active.com/softballump...stoDP-FLEX.htm

CecilOne has helped

The above link provides the following commentary. That information is in RED.

I have inserted some comments in BLUE.

* * *

The keys to DP/FLEX are:

A. No player can bat in different batting order slots during a game.

Yet, the FLEX player is initially placed in the 10th spot but, if she should ever bat, she'll have to bat in the spot occupied by the DP. So, it is not quite true that their spot in the "batting order" never changes.

B. Making it known before the game with the lineup and being sure all changes are reported to and tracked by the PU.

Yet, the penalties for a host of different scenarios are sometimes difficult to recognize or unravel.

Off hand, what would you rule if the offense should point out that the defense has had the DP playing defense throughout the inning while the FLEX has been on the bench?

Also, what if the DP is the leadoff batter and the FLEX batter comes up to bat? Is she an illegal substitute -or- is she batting out of order?

Would it make any difference if the DP was the 5th batter in the lineup when the FLEX improperly bats in the 10th spot?

C. Knowing the provisions:

1. DP starts on offense, FLEX starts on defense

Not a requirement! The DP can go out on the field in the 1st inning and the FLEX can bat for the DP in her first at-bat.

True, these are substitutions but it is not true that they have to "start" in those positions.

2. If not in starting “function”, not in game

True! See above.

3. The DP and FLEX players can't be in the batting order at the same time

When the "batting order" is submitted, both the DP and FLEX must be included "at the same time."

4. The FLEX can only bat in the DP slot

5. The DP can play defense at the same time as the FLEX – any position

6. In #5, the player not playing defense still bats

D. DP/Flex switches change the number of players in the game, but do not change the batting order.

When the FLEX bats she moves from the 10th spot to the DP's spot.

E. DP/FLEX replacing each other are not “substitutions”, but when either leaves the game and returns, that is a reentry.

Completely incorrect! When the FLEX replaces the DP in the batting order it must be reported or it is an unreported substitution violation. The same applies when the DP plays defense for the FLEX. These must be reported!

Of course, the reentries must also be reported.

Lots of reporting is required!

* * *

It's a convoluted rule. Substitution rules shouldn't be so complicated. The mere fact that you are looking for elaborating information and there are so many links attempting to explain it says it all. Even your acknowledgement that the ASA rulebook is inadequate should tell you something.

The DP/FLEX provision is a good idea gone awry, in my opinion.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Dakota]

You are going out of your way to make all this appear complicated, when it is not.

There is a difference between the starting lineup and the batting order. This is also true for the DH rule.

All moves by either the DP or FLEX must be reported to the umpire.

Violations involving the FLEX batting unreported are different from BOO, and you know it (but are pretending not to).

That just about covers all of your horrible complications, doesn't it.

[bigwes68]

Saw a situation the other day in an NCAA D-I game that confused the heck out of me.

In the lineup submitted to the press box (where I was) an hour before game time, the DP was actually listed in the 10th spot in the lineup. Apparently, at the plate meeting, they made some sort of change that I still don't understand. But in the end, the player listed in the 10th spot never batted and never played the field. It was as if they were batting a straight 9.

The sports information director from the school in question tried to explain it to me, but I still never quite understood it. Any idea how this works?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by bigwes68

Saw a situation the other day in an NCAA D-I game that confused the heck out of me.

In the lineup submitted to the press box (where I was) an hour before game time, the DP was actually listed in the 10th spot in the lineup. Apparently, at the plate meeting, they made some sort of change that I still don't understand. But in the end, the player listed in the 10th spot never batted and never played the field. It was as if they were batting a straight 9.

The sports information director from the school in question tried to explain it to me, but I still never quite understood it. Any idea how this works?

Sounds to me like the coach screwed up the lineup card. My guess is he intended the following:

Starting lineup with DP/FLEX, DP is his #1 pitcher and a good hitter. FLEX is his #2 pitcher, but not a good hitter.
Once the lineup becomes official, but before the game starts, bring the DP in on defense for FLEX. He will stay with this lineup unless he needs to bring in relief for his starting pitcher. Then FLEX re-enters the game to pitch, and DP goes to offense only.

The correction to reflect the above is probably what happened at the plate meeting.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You are going out of your way to make all this appear complicated, when it is not.

There is a difference between the starting lineup and the batting order. This is also true for the DH rule.

All moves by either the DP or FLEX must be reported to the umpire.

Violations involving the FLEX batting unreported are different from BOO, and you know it (but are pretending not to).

That just about covers all of your horrible complications, doesn't it.

The questions were mostly rhetorical to make a point. YOU may know the answers. It may all seem so simple to YOU. But I assure you that there are plenty of umpires and coaches who don't share your knowledge. You are in the vast minority.

I don't have to "pretend" that it's complicated. All the evidence suggests that it IS.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by bigwes68

Saw a situation the other day in an NCAA D-I game that confused the heck out of me.

In the lineup submitted to the press box (where I was) an hour before game time, the DP was actually listed in the 10th spot in the lineup. Apparently, at the plate meeting, they made some sort of change that I still don't understand. But in the end, the player listed in the 10th spot never batted and never played the field. It was as if they were batting a straight 9.

The sports information director from the school in question tried to explain it to me, but I still never quite understood it. Any idea how this works?

It sounds to me like they simply got the terms screwed up. They put the DP where the FLEX was supposed to be and FLEX where the DP was supposed to be.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[whiskers_ump]

A lot of college coaches and now HS coaches are making the DP/FLEX swap right after they submit
the lineup card. Don't know for sure why, but see more and more of it.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I don't have to "pretend" that it's complicated. All the evidence suggests that it IS.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I disagree. "All" the evidence does not "suggest" it is complicated. As can be seen from another thread, people can make even the force out rules complicated.

There are a number of articles posted (check the handout page on Softball Umpires) that will help you (or others) understand the rule.

I agree the ASA rule book is not the best reference for understanding this rule, but once the various aspects click, it is remarkable how uncomplicated it really is.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump

A lot of college coaches and now HS coaches are making the DP/FLEX swap right after they submit
the lineup card. Don't know for sure why, but see more and more of it.

The explanation I've heard is the one I posted above. They want their pitcher to bat. And they want a way to be able to relieve her later in the game if needed while keeping her in the batting order without having to move her to another defensive position. And, they don't want the relief pitcher to have to bat.

[bkbjones]

1. What I am handed at the plate meeting is the starting lineup. It includes the batting order, numbers and positions, and (hopefully) lists available substitutes.

2. The DP/Flex is no more complicated than what an umpire makes it out to be. There are several good resources listed above for those who have a problem with it. Resources are good when it comes to helping folks understand a rule. Just because there are several resources available doesn't make a rule a bad rule.

3. Players 1-9 constitute the batting order. If there is a flex, players 1-10 constitute the starting lineup.

It's really pretty simple. They are two different entities. It's kind of like basepath and baseline. Two separate things. When you start mixing the two is when you get into trouble.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I disagree. "All" the evidence does not "suggest" it is complicated. As can be seen from another thread, people can make even the force out rules complicated.

There are a number of articles posted (check the handout page on Softball Umpires) that will help you (or others) understand the rule.

I agree the ASA rule book is not the best reference for understanding this rule, but once the various aspects click, it is remarkable how uncomplicated it really is.

I agree, Tom. This rule has been in the college game since '84 and in ASA since '86. It is complicated because folks try to make it complicated - it took me 2 seasons of using it before I realized just how simple the rule is. And with all the simplicity of the rule - the DP is the single most potent position in the game of softball. I found the NCAA's chart to be most useful in looking at these positions.

[Skahtboi]

Really, there isn't anything all that complicated about the Flex rule.