DEFO/DP/Flex explanation

[IRISHMAFIA]

The reason is "seems" complicated is because of the coaches and umpires who overthink the process and try to find a loophole or advantage through the wording or the exclusion of such.

Because of that, the wording of the rule is not basic, but specific to the point of being extraneous. And, in spite of that, people still try to read into it and abuse what they believe to be a loophole or advantage.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The reason is "seems" complicated is because of the coaches and umpires who overthink the process and try to find a loophole or advantage through the wording or the exclusion of such.

There reason it "seems" complicated is because it is IS.

I would say the vast majority of coaches who use the DP/FLEX use it simply as a DH provision. Basically, Suzie is batting for Katie. That is almost the extent of their knowledge of the DP/FLEX.

Because of that, the wording of the rule is not basic, but specific to the point of being extraneous. And, in spite of that, people still try to read into it and abuse what they believe to be a loophole or advantage.

I don't think there are a lot of coaches out there looking for loopholes. And those that ARE looking for "loopholes" are only doing so because the rule is so incredibly convoluted it is practically crying out to be used to one's advantage.

Another reason a coach might be tempted to look for a "loophole" is likely because he is betting that he can get away with it due to the anticipated lack of detailed knowledge on the part of the umpire. It's a pretty safe bet. The coach, who understands it well, talks circles around the hapless umpire who probably hasn't faced many complex issues regarding the DP/FLEX. So the coach gets what he wants mostly because he sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

The bottom line is this: We waste far too much time talking about DP/FLEX when there are so many more important things to talk about. It's a substitution rule, for crissakes! The rules complexity makes it nothing more than a distraction.

Again - in my opinion.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I would say the vast majority of coaches who use the DP/FLEX use it simply as a DH provision. Basically, Suzie is batting for Katie. That is almost the extent of their knowledge of the DP/FLEX.

And you would be wrong if you said that. The vast majority of the coaches I see - high school, college, and beyond understand the DP/Flex very well.

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I don't think there are a lot of coaches out there looking for loopholes. And those that ARE looking for "loopholes" are only doing so because the rule is so incredibly convoluted it is practically crying out to be used to one's advantage.

Again, you would be wrong. Coaches are looking to win. It is the coach's job to look for opportunities they can take advantage of - and that's what a loophole is.

As to coaches hoping to take advantage of officials who have not taken the time to learn what they need to know - yeah, they do that. We've got enough so-called umpires around who don't bother to open a book for years and see no reason to attend a clinic or learn anything different that what they learned x-number of years ago.

David, Your opinions in the game of baseball are pretty solid and, rightfully, respected. That's a different game in a number of ways. Your opinions about the game of softball are looked at through the eyes of a baseball umpire. So, rightfully so, they are not worthy of a whole lot of respect. That's a big reason why I say very little anymore on the baseball side.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by Steve M

David, Your opinions in the game of baseball are pretty solid and, rightfully, respected. That's a different game in a number of ways. Your opinions about the game of softball are looked at through the eyes of a baseball umpire. So, rightfully so, they are not worthy of a whole lot of respect. That's a big reason why I say very little anymore on the baseball side.

I'll accept that as fair criticism.

I'll admit, I have much more experience (as an umpire) with baseball than I do with softball.

But I've been around fastpitch softball for many years. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert. In fact, I learn more from discussions in this forum than almost anywhere else.

Consequently, I try to limit my softball commentary to those things that are either opinions or experience.

My criticism of the DP/FLEX rule is an opinion based on experience; partly my experience, but mostly observed experiences. Those who say that most of the people they know understand the rule very well are either 1) kidding themselves or 2) only calling very high level ball or 3) don't travel around enough to get a good sampling. Umpires who only call high level softball, over a period of time, become detached from the realities of the majority of the softball world.

I'm confident when I say that a majority of people who should know the rule well - don't.

It is a mistake to dismiss the message just because you don't like the messenger.

But, to be fair, you're right. I do not have the experience in softball that many of you do. That's why I try to limit myself to opinions and categorical facts. People are welcomed to disagree. And I fully expect some to disagree. I'm OK with that.

Heck, much of what I know about DP/FLEX comes from you! Which I've always found very informative.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Steve M]

And I'll admit that other than a couple of 14&U games, high school ball is the youngest group that I see.

I think it's important that, as we move on & up, we remember those who have guided us - so we put something back in the pot for those who are coming next. So I spend some time helping with clinics, watching newer umpires work, even working some JV and 14&U games with umpires who want more. At these clinics - and we do a couple of lineup cards for games in each one - those who have spoken up seem to have an understanding on how it works. I know those who have worked those JV and 14&U games with me have a decent understanding - they work the plate and I usually ask the coaches to use a DP.

It's been my experience that those who put some time & effort into understanding the rule, come to the realization that this really is a simple rule to understand & apply. It's complex because we try to look at everything at once and add some third world applications - there's no reason to do that. And it's my prejudice - for lack of a better term - that I don't care too much about those who don't put the time & effort into it.

[tcblue13]

What is DEFO?

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

The explanation I've heard is the one I posted above. They want their pitcher to bat. And they want a way to be able to relieve her later in the game if needed while keeping her in the batting order without having to move her to another defensive position. And, they don't want the relief pitcher to have to bat.

Believe you are correct Sir. It happened to me today in my college game. So I politely ask the coach during a conversation we were having between innings and that is what she told me.

[whiskers_ump]

OH BTW, Yes, I even talk to college coaches between innings... Most are human and some even have some good stories to relate.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

What is DEFO?

DEFense Only. It was the descriptive and functional name of half of the DP/DEFO pair before NFHS decided to call the less flexible position in the pair the FLEX.

In case that little tortured sentence wasn't clear... DEFO is the old name for FLEX.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

My criticism of the DP/FLEX rule is an opinion based on experience; partly my experience, but mostly observed experiences. Those who say that most of the people they know understand the rule very well are either 1) kidding themselves or 2) only calling very high level ball or 3) don't travel around enough to get a good sampling. Umpires who only call high level softball, over a period of time, become detached from the realities of the majority of the softball world.

Heck, David, most of the couches around here in JO ball don't know how the basic substitution rules work. They only have to worry about batting 9 when they get to championship play. Most everything else is bat the roster.

Lack of putting in the effort to learn does not equate to complicated.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by Dakota

DEFense Only. It was the descriptive and functional name of half of the DP/DEFO pair before NFHS decided to call the less flexible position in the pair the FLEX.

In case that little tortured sentence wasn't clear... DEFO is the old name for FLEX.

Muchas Gracias

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

DEFense Only. It was the descriptive and functional name of half of the DP/DEFO pair before NFHS decided to call the less flexible position in the pair the FLEX.

In case that little tortured sentence wasn't clear... DEFO is the old name for FLEX.

Don't blame NFHS for this one. NCAA was first to make the change; it seems the college coaches, all college graduates, most with graduate degrees, even some with doctorates, just couldn't grasp why a position called DEfense ONly could play offense (when she was no longer playing that position!! When you move your catcher to shortstop, she isn't catcher any more is she??) sometime during a game. They insisted a new name be coined, and FLEX was the NCAA creation. ASA agreed to accept the new term, for consistency; when NFHS decided to adopt the rule to replace the more baseball DH rule, it adopted the then universal names.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Heck, David, most of the couches around here in JO ball don't know how the basic substitution rules work. They only have to worry about batting 9 when they get to championship play. Most everything else is bat the roster.

Lack of putting in the effort to learn does not equate to complicated.

Couches only know one thing-----lazy bodies avoiding "honey dews". My Honey threw my couch out
couple years ago.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

The bottom line is this: We waste far too much time talking about DP/FLEX when there are so many more important things to talk about. It's a substitution rule, for crissakes! The rules complexity makes it nothing more than a distraction.

Again - in my opinion.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

And you are entitled to your opinion.

However, the rule is actually a participation rule created and developed at the request of the coaches and their teams, not the umpires, administrators or the officers of the respective associations which use it.

If I had my druthers, I would get rid if it and NOT replace it with anything else like the ludicrous DH. Play both sides of the contest or don't play at all.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Don't blame NFHS for this one. NCAA was first to make the change; it seems the college coaches, all college graduates, most with graduate degrees, even some with doctorates, just couldn't grasp why a position called DEfense ONly could play offense (when she was no longer playing that position!! When you move your catcher to shortstop, she isn't catcher any more is she??) sometime during a game. They insisted a new name be coined, and FLEX was the NCAA creation. ASA agreed to accept the new term, for consistency; when NFHS decided to adopt the rule to replace the more baseball DH rule, it adopted the then universal names.

Like you said, Steve, the folks just couldn't grasp the concept of when the player designated as the DEFO batted, that player was no longer the DEFO because that position had disappeared. When not batting this player is defense only, hence the name.