The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 11, 2006, 02:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 8
Courtesy Runner for the FLEX

Dave Emerling wrote a great series of articles a few months back about all the tricks/strategies that a crafty coach could try with the DP/FLEX. One of the points of interest was: Is a coach able to bring the FLEX in to run for a DP and then IMMEDIATELY bring in the courtesy runner for the FLEX (since the FLEX is the P)? Or... would he/she have to leave the FLEX in the game for one pitch under the substitution rule 4:6-B-2? The question really boils down to "is bringing the FLEX in for the DP considered a substitution"? If yes, then the "one pitch" rule would apply. If no, then a CR could be used for the FLEX immediately since the FLEX is in fact the P. 4:6-B-2 specifically mentions that a "substitute is not considered in the game...." In this example, wouldn't the FLEX be considered "in the game" seeing as how she is the current P? It's confusing, but it's a legitimate question.

Any comments or clarifications would be appreciated!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 11, 2006, 02:52pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
He cannot do either one. For the CR to be used for F1, F1 must earn her own way on base.
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 11, 2006, 04:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 994
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
For the CR to be used for F1, F1 must earn her own way on base.
What rule is that?

My understanding of NFHS is that if the Flex is F1 or F2 and enters into offense for the DP, the DP is considered to have left the game and at that point my understanding is that a CR would be allowed for the player who last occupied the position of F1 or F2 (or if in the top of the first inning was listed in the line-up as such.)
__________________
Dan
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 11, 2006, 04:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Mike
Dave Emerling wrote a great series of articles a few months back about all the tricks/strategies that a crafty coach could try with the DP/FLEX. One of the points of interest was: Is a coach able to bring the FLEX in to run for a DP and then IMMEDIATELY bring in the courtesy runner for the FLEX (since the FLEX is the P)? Or... would he/she have to leave the FLEX in the game for one pitch under the substitution rule 4:6-B-2?
No such thing as a "one pitch" rule in ASA.

Quote:
The question really boils down to "is bringing the FLEX in for the DP considered a substitution"?

Yes

Quote:
If yes, then the "one pitch" rule would apply.
Again, no such rule.

Quote:
If no, then a CR could be used for the FLEX immediately since the FLEX is in fact the P. 4:6-B-2 specifically mentions that a "substitute is not considered in the game...." In this example, wouldn't the FLEX be considered "in the game" seeing as how she is the current P? It's confusing, but it's a legitimate question.

Any comments or clarifications would be appreciated!
I cannot find anything in Rule 4 or 7 forbidding doing what you are saying, but it seems like a waste of a reentry.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 11, 2006, 04:44pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,822
NFHS Rule 8-9-2 states, in part, "The pitcher or catcher must bat and reach base legally (or earn their way on base) in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner." In being entered on offense strictly as a runner, the FLEX has not met this requirement, no matter who last pitched or caught.

As Mike mentions, that isn't illegal in ASA; but you will have cost your DP her re-entry rights to accomplish a courtesy runner. Maybe that makes sense to some coaches.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 11, 2006, 08:00pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve
NFHS Rule 8-9-2 states, in part, "The pitcher or catcher must bat and reach base legally (or earn their way on base) in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner." In being entered on offense strictly as a runner, the FLEX has not met this requirement, no matter who last pitched or caught.

As Mike mentions, that isn't illegal in ASA; but you will have cost your DP her re-entry rights to accomplish a courtesy runner. Maybe that makes sense to some coaches.
I though everyone adopted the same flex rule, or is ASA different because they were first with DEFO.

Also, my current understanding is that ITB is not "earning your way on base" even though it defeats the purpose of the rule, so I'd like to know if that's wrong.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 11, 2006, 09:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,822
We (Georgia) asked for a ruling from Mary Struckhoff. Her reply was that the pitcher or catcher "earned" their way just as much as any other position in the batting order, by making the last out in the previous inning, thus were entitled to a courtesy runner in ITB. She further commented, as did you, that refusing the CR in that case would be counterproductive to the intent of the CR rule, and that the "earned" requirement was to stop the ingenious efforts to circumvent the intent and limitations.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 11, 2006, 09:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 994
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve
NFHS Rule 8-9-2 states, in part, "The pitcher or catcher must bat and reach base legally (or earn their way on base) in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner." In being entered on offense strictly as a runner, the FLEX has not met this requirement, no matter who last pitched or caught.
Thanks. I missed that.

A follow-up... How could a one "earn their way on base" other than batting and reaching base legally? Perhaps being put at 2B for an international tie-breaker situation. Is there another way?
__________________
Dan
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 12, 2006, 01:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 8
Clarification (ASA)

I should have clarified that I am talking about ASA - my apologies! "Earning" their way on is an NFHS rule and I am aware of the differences.

ASA Rule 4:6-B-2 mandates that a reported substitute (in this case the FLEX for the DP) must stay in the game for one pitch, legal or not, or one play in order to be considered "in the game". At this point, it would seem as though we could allow the CR for the FLEX.

I believe the intent of the coach is to get speed on the bases with the intent or re-entering the DP. A DP would still have re-entry rights in this scenario as it is the first time she's being taken out of the game.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 12, 2006, 06:56am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Mike
ASA Rule 4:6-B-2 mandates that a reported substitute (in this case the FLEX for the DP) must stay in the game for one pitch, legal or not, or one play in order to be considered "in the game".
There is no such rule in ASA. You are misreading 4.6.B. This reference is there solely for the purpose of defining a point in time the offense may report a substitute without penalty should the defense raise the issue.

See the umpire's page at www.asasoftball.com and check rules interpretations for the month of March.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 12, 2006, 08:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve
We (Georgia) asked for a ruling from Mary Struckhoff. Her reply was that the pitcher or catcher "earned" their way just as much as any other position in the batting order, by making the last out in the previous inning, thus were entitled to a courtesy runner in ITB. She further commented, as did you, that refusing the CR in that case would be counterproductive to the intent of the CR rule, and that the "earned" requirement was to stop the ingenious efforts to circumvent the intent and limitations.
Thanks. I'm going to assume that the NFHS interp. applies to the position, even if the pitcher/catcher was replaced defensively after "making the last out in the previous inning".
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NSA courtesy runner Little Jimmy Softball 4 Tue Jul 05, 2005 07:59am
courtesy runner benbret Softball 4 Fri May 27, 2005 10:49pm
Courtesy Runner Gemini Baseball 2 Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:44pm
Courtesy Runner pollywolly60 Softball 3 Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:47am
Courtesy Runner whiskers_ump Softball 23 Sat Nov 03, 2001 11:35am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:40am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1