The Official Forum - Stubborn Partner

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- - Stubborn Partner – what can you do? (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/25818-stubborn-partner-what-can-you-do.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smiley

Create your own ficticious situation where your partner has blown a call and rejects the coach's request to reverse it or to get your input.

Let's make this clear cut.

You're PU. R1 on 1st. Bunt up 1st base line. Fielded by F3 10 feet from the bag. Swipe tag on BR. You see a clear miss of the tag. Partner calls the out. 1st base coach asks partner to get help. Partner refuses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota

Partner refuses. End of story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota

Too bad......Coaches are not entitled to a second opinion.

Steve, I think your post actually supports my contention that there is no rule against sharing information. I agree that protocol and common sense dictate that you don't unless asked. In fact, I tried to come up with an example of when I might approach my partner concerning a call he had made and couldn't come up with one in which I shouldn't have gone ahead and made the call myself based on what I saw. I guess the closest I could come was on a base award in which I might question if a runner was awarded the correct base. For instance, he awards third on an overthrow, but you think the runner from first had already reached second and should have been awarded home.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

ASA 10-1.G "No umpire has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by another umpire within the limits of the respective duties as outlined in these rules."

ASA 10-1.H "An umpire may consult the other umpire(s) at any time; however, the final decision will rest with the umpire whose exclusive authority it is to make the decision and who requests the opinion of the other umpire(s)".

ASA Umpire Manual "When one umpire requests an opinion from another concerning a given play, the opinion should be given honestly and courteously to the umpire requesting it. Never offer an opinion, though, unless asked. Unsolicited advice is never appreciated and will cultivate a lack of confidence in the umpire(s)."

NFHS 10-1-4 (in part) "The umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision."

NFHS Umpire Manual "When one umpire requests an opinion from another concerning a given play which has been ruled upon, the opinion should be given honestly and courteously to the umpire requesting it. and to him/her only. Never offer an opinion, though, unless asked. Unsolicited advice is never appreciated and will cultivate a lack of confidence in the umpire(s)."

NCAA 15-2.h "An umpire should consult his or her associate(s) upon the request of a head coach; however, the final decision will rest with the umpire whose exclusive authority is to make the final decision and who requests the opinion of the other umpires."

NCAA Umpire Manual "The umpire whose call it was must be the one to seek help from a partner. .... Only in the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he/she has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call, should approach unsolicited and alert the umpire to such information. This is an extremely rare circumstance, and the ultimate decision to change a call still rests with the calling umpire.
1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground-rule double.
3) Cases where a foul tip is caught or trapped by the catcher.
4) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see a dropped or juggled ball after making a tag or force.
6) Spectator interference plays."

There is no rule against sharing information you may have? In the context of this post, there certainly is.

Good points all, AB. Seems that everyone LOVES to invoke the God Rule part of rule 10 whenever they seem to disagree with the rest of the book... but God Forbid we read the rest of the rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota

What's the question? Batter up.

In a perfect world...

(Do they make one of these icons with rose-colored glasses?:cool:)

My partner and I have had a productive pre-game meeting. We've covered this possibility and are prepared when the play happens.

Upon calling the B/R out, my partner glances over and notices that I am discretely giving our pre-determined "I've got information for ya, partner!" signal.

Partner calls time and immediately comes to me for help. I offer to him what I saw on the play. He then adjusts- or refuses to adjust- his call accordingly.

If he doesn't ask for help, I keep my trap shut.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcrowder

What's the question? Batter up.

I posted the simpler scenario to get right to the nub of the question. No room for a disagreement on judgement, no room for distance. The "other umpire" (other than the one making the call) has information that the call is clearly and unarguably wrong, but the umpire refuses to go to you for help. The umpire manuals and rule books for ASA and NFHS say to NOT offer help unless asked.

A "secret signal" as suggested is one way around this to abide by the book and still get the call right, and apparently NCAA provides an escape clause, but in no case is the umpire with the "correct" information to overrule the other, and even offering unsolicited adivce is either forbidden or strongly discouraged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beave

first of all if you felt there was obstruction you should have had the delay dead signal on for your partner to see since you state there was a colision of some type you must have seen something. if your partner did not see the signal then and only then should you offer your opinion. unless you are asked by your partner for an opinion and then its still his call as to what to do with runner.

The signal isn't for your partner, it's for the participants. I wouldn't expect my partner to see my signal as s/he has a few other things on his plate at that time.

The umpire making the call MUST be the one to enforce it because if your partner didn't call the OBS, how would s/he know to which base the runner is protected?