Stubborn Partner – what can you do?
 

You are the PU; as game UIC can you rectify a bad situation when partner refuses to do so?

A fictitious situation: ball hit into the outfield, B-R makes contact with F3 and is knocked off stride, but continues to 2B and is called out by BU on a bang-bang play. B-R bounces up complaining that she was bumped; coach is yelling for obstruction. Coach and BU conference; BU stays with play. Coach comes to you; you tell him you will not discuss the play, to talk with your partner. That infuriates the coach (coaches, players, fans, etc.) more because BU does not want to talk any more.

Now what? You don’t know what is going on. Maybe BU did not see obstruction (bad mechanics); maybe he saw it and didn’t think it significant (bad rules knowledge); maybe he protected the B-R back to 1B and she went beyond (bad interpretation). Maybe he is having a bad day; maybe he doesn’t like the coach.

Whatever – you have a bad situation. As UIC, you want a bad call fixed.

Will you go to partner and attempt to get him to reverse his call?

If you do, and he won’t, would you over-rule him?

Or do you just stay out of it, saying you can’t do anything until BU elects to solicit your input?

WMB

BTW - protests not allowed; all issues settled on the field by the umpiring crew.

Think judgment call…… good or bad it’s the BU’s judgment call. In this situation if I’m the PU and the coach comes to me I won’t talk to him about the play. He needs to convince my partner to ask me for help.

In some associations it is allowable (advisable) for one umpire to go to the other umpire if they are 100% sure they have something that can help get the call right. How you handle this should be addressed in your pre-game meeting with your partner.

You NEVER reverse your partner on a judgment call. If asked (by your partner) you give him the information you have but your partner is still responsible for changing his call, not you.

PU apparently saw the obstruction on this play and did nothing about it. Why didn't PU call it? This isn't fishing in somebody else's spot. See obstruction - call it. Saves a whole lot of grief and prevents this situation.

What is PU going to over-rule? Judgement, nope, not allowed - even if due to bad mechanics. If I'm PU, I'm not going to my partner to talk about his job, especially since I didn't do mine in this play.

I can't say that I care a whole lot about infuriated coaches, players, and fans - their ignorance is not my problem.

"Or do you just stay out of it, saying you can’t do anything until BU elects to solicit your input?" - yup, but I'm saying something like "that's my partner's call, talk to my partner." I will not tell a coach that I can't or won't do anything - I don't see that as appropriate.

And I think the post-game get together might be interesting.

Agree with Steve. Obstruction may be called by either umpire. I know in WMB's situation he has the PU not making the call.

But how it should have gone is........when the BU made the out call.......the PU should call time and award the base on the obstruction he had.

Joel

The original post asks if PU should over-rule the BU. Not only he should not, there is no rules basis to support that he could. No matter how bad the original call is, you can't violate a different rule in the name of trying to fix the wrong. Whether judgment or poor rule knowledge or interpretation. No umpire has the authority to over-rule the calling umpire.

Interestingly (and perhaps intentionally), the fictitious play is one where both umpires have authority to make the call. But PU did not make the obvious call, so he waived his right to now assert he can make it. If PU did his job, he would have had the DDB signal, and at the end of the play conferenced with BU to determine the award. He just wants to get a bad call fixed? In this case, look in the mirror.

Interesting, you all give a DDB as PU when you see OBS that is typically the BU call? I have not heard of that mechanic. Not saying I dont agree with it in this case, and that having the OBS called should happen. Issue I have is if no runners are on, (dont think OP mentioned TOP conditions) then the BU has the B-R to third wouldnt' OBS be there call? Reason I say that is OBS has a lot of judgement in it, true contact is close to a given to get the call but there are a lot of cases where I might view it as OBS from the plate especially if I am just looking back after verifying fair, ball no catch in left field and see somethign that looked like OBS only seeing part of it, but BU saw it and it was a stupid runner move not caused by F3 at all, the play at 2nd comes in and I kill it on what I think was OBS, BU was on top of it and it wasn't now that will make for a nice post game conference.

Not trying to start an arguement, I believe it is about getting it right #1 above all else but seems like this mechanic could hurt sometimes.

Relating to this original post, PU saw "contact with F3 and is knocked off stride". OBS can be called by PU, and if he observes that BU has failed to do it, he should. This one sounds obvious, and the obvious call can't be ignored.

Gray area, I agree; don't start making them from your position. Black and white, call it every time; maybe hesitate, and don't bother if BU does it, but do not let it be uncalled.

What about this situation. Since we seem to agree that we shouldn't overrule on this. Batter is struck by pitch, bu calls dead ball, pu says no way that ball didnt hit him/her. What occurs next?

Sorry, but you are all way off base. :)


If you see the OBS, and I don't care who was responsible for the runner at that point, you call it. When your partner rules the runner out, you inform your partner of the OBS call and award the runner the appropriate base.

That's it. Really nothing more to be said.

Gee Mike............wasn't that what I said.............d;-) (your $.05 is in the mail)

Simple, ball is dead! PU & BU get together and figure out which call they'll go with.

I have a quick question.
Do you confer with your partner before making the call or do you just call it and let your partner learn about it the same time everyone else does?

Ignorant coaches, players and fans
 

Steve M said:

"PU apparently saw the obstruction on this play and did nothing about it. Why didn't PU call it? This isn't fishing in somebody else's spot. See obstruction - call it. Saves a whole lot of grief and prevents this situation.

What is PU going to over-rule? Judgement, nope, not allowed - even if due to bad mechanics. If I'm PU, I'm not going to my partner to talk about his job, especially since I didn't do mine in this play.

I can't say that I care a whole lot about infuriated coaches, players, and fans - their ignorance is not my problem."

----------------------

In this scenario there was an obstructed baserunner and you say the PU didn't do his job in this play. I assume this is the very same obstruction the coaches, players and fans saw. How then, does their unhappy response to a blown call make them "ignorant"?

OK guys, you have twisted this around and made it the PU's fault. Of course, both umps can call obstruction. And interference. BUT THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION

Create your own ficticious situation where your partner has blown a call and rejects the coach's request to reverse it or to get your input. You saw the dropped ball or swipe tag or whatever. Must you stay quiet because of umpire prototcal, or do you have a greater obligation to the game to get the play right?

WMB

I answered that back in post #5. It's more than umpire protocol; it cannot be done according to the rules of softball. By your greater obligation, you cannot violate that rule.

As ALTUMPSTEVE said, "Suck it up"...Nothing you can do.

There is no rule against getting together with your partner and discussing what each of you saw. You can't overrule him, but you can let him know what you saw. Then he can make up his own mind.

It makes them VERY ignorant about what I may or may not do BY RULE! B!tch & moan all you want - Since this situation, by rule, may not be addressed by PU, those who want it addressed by PU are ignorant (of the rules of the game).

There is no rule against getting together with your partner and discussing what each of you saw. You can't overrule him, but you can let him know what you saw. Then he can make up his own mind.

Smiley,

I agree there is no rule against getting together with your partner and discussing what each of you saw if it the umpire who made the call asking for your input.

With WMB's discription of the play, when the PU saw the the obstruction he should have given the DDB signal even though the BU didn't.

Since neither of them gave an obtruction call, for them to get together after the play and change this particulair call is asking for trouble from the defensive coach who will want to know why the call wasn't made when it was seen.

So, if BU is right on the play, sees the runner round first perfectly, sees the "incident" and judges it to definitely be no obstruction other umpire can overrule that BU from perhaps 60 to 80 feet away?

There is no if to it. There is no rule. It may not be a good idea in most cases, but there is no rule.

An umpire who sees obstruction and calls it is not overruling anyone.

Sorry I dangled a prepositional phrase, chose an unclear word and perhaps confused some. Let me rephrase:

So, if a BU is right on the play, sees the runner round first perfectly, sees the "incident" and judges it to definitely not be obstruction, the opinion of a PU from perhaps 60 to 80 feet away who happens to think it is obstruction, would trump that "no obstruction" judgment made by the BU in position to judge the situation from a closer perspective?

I think I'll just quote Tom
"An umpire who sees obstruction and calls it is not overruling anyone."

Am I going to know where my partner is? yup. Am I going to consider that? yup. If I clearly see obstruction, am I going to call it - regardless of where my partner is or anything else? yup.

I had a situation this weekend, NFHS scrimmage, when as BU, I had an OBS call, while my partner did not could not see me with my arm out - his back was to me. We discussed it afterward, and I learned that in that situation, when I know that partner can not see me give the OBS DDB signal, that I should vocalize the OBS call for him to hear. In the case posed for this thread, should the PU have vocalized OBS? Is vocalizing an OBS call written anywhere as a correct procedure for either ASA or NFHS umpires?

Pure rubbish. Your partner doesn't need to know you called OBS. Your partner, as you, just need to continue with the play as it unfolds. When the play is done or if the OBS runner is called out by your partner prior to reaching the base to which they are protected, you would then kill the play and apply the appropriate award.

I think we are getting away from the point of the original post, as stated by the original poster in a subsequent post:

WMB said, "OK guys, you have twisted this around and made it the PU's fault. Of course, both umps can call obstruction. And interference. BUT THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION

Create your own ficticious situation where your partner has blown a call and rejects the coach's request to reverse it or to get your input. You saw the dropped ball or swipe tag or whatever. Must you stay quiet because of umpire prototcal, or do you have a greater obligation to the game to get the play right?"

My point is that although the rules prevent you from overruling your partner's call, there is no rule against sharing information you may have.

There is a reason certain calls are the "property" of certain umpires. The OBS and INT discussion aside, if I see my partner make an awful judgement call, there's no way in Hades I'm going to say a word unless he asks me. Why? Because it's his call and he's at least 60 feet closer to it than I was. What may APPEAR to me to be a horrible call is still likely to be the RIGHT call, since he's 10 feet from the call and I'm 60 or 85 feet away. When my judgement from 85 feet becomes so perfect that it's better than some other umpire's from 10 feet, I'll tell my assignor I don't need a 2nd umpire, as I'm flawless.

ASA 10-1.G "No umpire has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by another umpire within the limits of the respective duties as outlined in these rules."

ASA 10-1.H "An umpire may consult the other umpire(s) at any time; however, the final decision will rest with the umpire whose exclusive authority it is to make the decision and who requests the opinion of the other umpire(s)".

ASA Umpire Manual "When one umpire requests an opinion from another concerning a given play, the opinion should be given honestly and courteously to the umpire requesting it. Never offer an opinion, though, unless asked. Unsolicited advice is never appreciated and will cultivate a lack of confidence in the umpire(s)."

NFHS 10-1-4 (in part) "The umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision."

NFHS Umpire Manual "When one umpire requests an opinion from another concerning a given play which has been ruled upon, the opinion should be given honestly and courteously to the umpire requesting it. and to him/her only. Never offer an opinion, though, unless asked. Unsolicited advice is never appreciated and will cultivate a lack of confidence in the umpire(s)."

NCAA 15-2.h "An umpire should consult his or her associate(s) upon the request of a head coach; however, the final decision will rest with the umpire whose exclusive authority is to make the final decision and who requests the opinion of the other umpires."

NCAA Umpire Manual "The umpire whose call it was must be the one to seek help from a partner. .... Only in the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he/she has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call, should approach unsolicited and alert the umpire to such information. This is an extremely rare circumstance, and the ultimate decision to change a call still rests with the calling umpire.
1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground-rule double.
3) Cases where a foul tip is caught or trapped by the catcher.
4) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see a dropped or juggled ball after making a tag or force.
6) Spectator interference plays."

There is no rule against sharing information you may have? In the context of this post, there certainly is.

Umpires are obligated to get the play right BUT there IS an established protocol that should be followed.

The most widely followed protocol is simple. You offer additional information only when asked by your partner. No umpire can over-rule his/her partner.

Another protocol, apparently not used in softball, is for the partner, if they are 100% sure that they have some information that will aid their partner, to approach their partner with this information, even if not asked. The #1 concern of this protocol is to get the call right.

But in either protocol the umpire making the original call is the only umpire that can reverse the call.

Let's make this clear cut.

You're PU. R1 on 1st. Bunt up 1st base line. Fielded by F3 10 feet from the bag. Swipe tag on BR. You see a clear miss of the tag. Partner calls the out. 1st base coach asks partner to get help. Partner refuses.

Partner refuses. End of story.

Too bad......Coaches are not entitled to a second opinion.

Steve, I think your post actually supports my contention that there is no rule against sharing information. I agree that protocol and common sense dictate that you don't unless asked. In fact, I tried to come up with an example of when I might approach my partner concerning a call he had made and couldn't come up with one in which I shouldn't have gone ahead and made the call myself based on what I saw. I guess the closest I could come was on a base award in which I might question if a runner was awarded the correct base. For instance, he awards third on an overthrow, but you think the runner from first had already reached second and should have been awarded home.

Good points all, AB. Seems that everyone LOVES to invoke the God Rule part of rule 10 whenever they seem to disagree with the rest of the book... but God Forbid we read the rest of the rule.

What's the question? Batter up.

In a perfect world...

(Do they make one of these icons with rose-colored glasses?:cool:)

My partner and I have had a productive pre-game meeting. We've covered this possibility and are prepared when the play happens.

Upon calling the B/R out, my partner glances over and notices that I am discretely giving our pre-determined "I've got information for ya, partner!" signal.

Partner calls time and immediately comes to me for help. I offer to him what I saw on the play. He then adjusts- or refuses to adjust- his call accordingly.

If he doesn't ask for help, I keep my trap shut.

I posted the simpler scenario to get right to the nub of the question. No room for a disagreement on judgement, no room for distance. The "other umpire" (other than the one making the call) has information that the call is clearly and unarguably wrong, but the umpire refuses to go to you for help. The umpire manuals and rule books for ASA and NFHS say to NOT offer help unless asked.

A "secret signal" as suggested is one way around this to abide by the book and still get the call right, and apparently NCAA provides an escape clause, but in no case is the umpire with the "correct" information to overrule the other, and even offering unsolicited adivce is either forbidden or strongly discouraged.

The signal isn't for your partner, it's for the participants. I wouldn't expect my partner to see my signal as s/he has a few other things on his plate at that time.

The umpire making the call MUST be the one to enforce it because if your partner didn't call the OBS, how would s/he know to which base the runner is protected?