Foreign substance IP repeated...

[Dakota]

Two decent 16U teams last night. League double-header. One pitcher has a habit of licking her fingers 1, 2, even 3 times between pitches. She always wipes her hand before going to the ball. However, in the 4th inning (very hot and dry conditions) she starts not wiping. The first time, I notice but don't call it - figure it must be an oversight or something. The next time (2 pitches or so later) I do call it, and advance the runner from 1B to 2B. She and her coach want an explanation, so I give one, no problem.

Runner advances to 3rd on a wild pitch / passed ball. F1 again goes directly from mouth to ball, almost quickly like she is trying to hide it or something. I call it again, and advance the runner home. She stops doing it.

Long story to get to this point: ASA 6-6-A EFFECT says this:

EFFECT: An illegal pitch shall be called on the first offense. If any defensive player continues to place a foreign substance on the ball, the player should be ejected from the ball game.

Would any of you have ejected this F1?

[Dukat]

I think the main part of this rule IMHO is "continues to"

Is twice enough to constitute an ejection? I do not think so nor would I apply it here but if it got to the point where I thought it was more than a mistake and a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules then I would consider it.

[Andy]

I don't think so.

At this point, you have called the IP once...maybe she did it without thinking.

The second time, you mentioned that your perception was that she was trying to hide her actions from you...you called the IP again and enforced the penalty.

Since you believe that the pitcher may be deliberately violating the rule after your explanation and enforcement, it may be advisable to talk to both the pitcher and her coach and inform them that if she places a foreign substance (spit) on the ball again, you will have no choice but to eject her. Of course, you have to follow through if necessary.

The above is my opinion only...the rule basis is there for an ejection on the second offense and I would not have a problem with an ejection at that point.

[Dukat]

This is pure speculation but what if after doing it she realized what she did and then made it look like she was doing it intentional by having that guilty look.

Speaking of that, If they do it and realize what they done and wiped the ball on their shirt after and before the pitch should you still call it then?

[Steve M]

This is league play, so I'm not even going to think about ejecting for this kind of offense. Fighting, malicious/flagrant stuff - absolutely, but not for this. I am going to keep calling the IP, though. And I'd explain the violation a second or third time.

Dukat - you said "This is pure speculation but what if after doing it she realized what she did and then made it look like she was doing it intentional by having that guilty look." That's too much thinking for me, if she commits an IP, call it.

Then you asked "Speaking of that, If they do it and realize what they done and wiped the ball on their shirt after and before the pitch should you still call it then?" The IP is called as soon as she moves her hand from her mouth to the ball without wiping the hand. Wiping the ball on the shirt happens after the IP has been called.

[AtlUmpSteve]

In my case, this is more a rationalization of a philosophy, than a literal interpretation of the rules, BUT....

I call an illegal pitch when a youth pitcher doesn't wipe after licking her fingers because the rule says so; not because I think I have EVER seen a youth throw a spitball, or gain any other advantage on the ball. So far as I know, it is done only to increase the sensitivity of the fingertips. This is not an intent to cheat, or gain an unfair advantage; and I would call the illegal pitch, but never actually consider an ejection for that offense.

Now, when the men add stickum, chewing tobacco spit, vaseline, and other foreign substances, that is absolutely done with the intent to cheat. Do it once, get caught; illegal pitch. Do it again; ejection.

Again, my philosphy, moreso than a strict interpretation.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In my case, this is more a rationalization of a philosophy, than a literal interpretation of the rules, BUT....

I call an illegal pitch when a youth pitcher doesn't wipe after licking her fingers because the rule says so; not because I think I have EVER seen a youth throw a spitball, or gain any other advantage on the ball. So far as I know, it is done only to increase the sensitivity of the fingertips. This is not an intent to cheat, or gain an unfair advantage; and I would call the illegal pitch, but never actually consider an ejection for that offense.

Now, when the men add stickum, chewing tobacco spit, vaseline, and other foreign substances, that is absolutely done with the intent to cheat. Do it once, get caught; illegal pitch. Do it again; ejection.

Again, my philosphy, moreso than a strict interpretation.

Sounds about right to me as well.

[bkbjones]

And...

The spirit of the rule is not about a "spit" ball. I can explain the physics if you want, but basic saliva won't help things much. In fact, plain old saliva can impair a pitcher's ability to properly deliver a pitch.

Besides, you can do much, much more with a ball that has even a small nick in it than you can a "spit" ball. Still, I have and will ring them up for an illegal pitch.

The spirit of the rule is about items such as pine tar that can and does improve the pitcher's grip/control of the ball. If they have a nice little "Slippery Elm" lozenge, that is a big no-no too.

[Dakota]

Thanks for the comments, guys. FWIW, I agree that with the size, weight, and pitching distance, the "spit ball" in youth fastpitch is basically nonsense, but it is an issue that is specifically addressed in the rule. Obviously, I didn't eject, either. I did, however, tell the coach that her pitcher can't keep doing that after the second call.

[SWFLguy]

We had a JV HS pitcher here that had a bad habit of pushing her hair back
before she pitched. We told her that if she had to do it, she needed to wipe her hand on her shirt or pants before the pitch. In a perfect world, coaches would break pitchers of such things.
The worse case of foreign substance on a ball I ever had was in a men's FP tournament. The plate umpire had tossed a ball because it had pine tar or something like that on it. When it happened again, he asked me to see if I could tell how it was getting on the ball. I watched everyone and finally was able to tell that it was the 1st baseman who had some stuff on his glove and was doing it on purpose in key situations. We tossed him. He was not happy !

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by SWFLguy

... I watched everyone and finally was able to tell that it was the 1st baseman who had some stuff on his glove and was doing it on purpose in key situations. We tossed him. He was not happy !...

Who did you toss? In my book the pitcher should be tossed, not the 1st baseman... And oh yeah, please get ride of that preparred glove.

[DNTXUM P]

Sander,

How are you doing? Long time no hear. I will be seeing Sonny Pompeli next week in Colordo. Also, Candy and Lee.

How did your tryout go?

Larry