Is this a catch?

[greymule]

in NCAA, even with a real fence - whether homer or in foul territory, if the player leaps from the playing field, catches it over DBT, and lands in DBT, it is not a catch.

I can't find this in the NCAA book. Where is it?

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
WMB - in NCAA, even with a real fence - whether homer or in foul territory, if the player leaps from the playing field, catches it over DBT, and lands in DBT, it is not a catch

mcrowder - please take this a little further. All I have is my reading of the catch definition and I don't see that interpretation.

Both the NCAA and NFHS rules are identical: "For a legal catch a fielder must catch and have secure possession of the ball before stepping, touching or falling into a dead-ball area." The rule does not define where the ball is at; only where the fielder ends.

Stepping or touching DBT is not a problem; the question is if the fielder leaps in the air, when is she falling into DBT?

If the body is partially over DBT but the hand (with the glove) makes the catch in live ball area and the body lands in DBT is that a catch?

Yes.

If the body is partially over LBT, but the catching hand is over DBT, and the body lands in DBT, is that not a catch?

Correct.

Note also that both NFHS and NCAA then say "A fielder who falls over or through the fence after making a catch shall be credited with the catch.” Again, the book does not define where the ball was at the time of catch, only where the fielder ended.

But it does say falls over... AFTER making a catch. It doesn't say contacts the ground after making a catch over DBT. Technically, once the ball is over DBT, it is in DBT.

WMB
[/B]

Page 16 - For a legal catch, a fielder must catch and have secure posession of the ball before ... falling into a dead-ball area. A fielder who falls over ... the fence AFTER making a catch shall be credited with the catch.

It says before falling into... not before contacting.

Page 18 - Dead-ball territory - That area beyond any real playing field boundary such as a fence...

Page 143 - The batter is awarded home plate with no liability to be put out when a fair batted fly ball ... leaves the playing field in fair territory without touching the ground or going through the fence.

[greymule]

it is not a catch if the ball has already crossed the boundary

Where is this in the NCAA book?

And I'm having a hard time understanding the following exchange:

If the body is partially over LBT, but the catching hand is over DBT, and the body lands in DBT, is that not a catch?

Correct.

In a lifetime of playing ball, I have never heard anyone contend that a player who jumps into the air from fair territory, catches the ball partly or even completely over DBT, falls into DBT, and holds onto the ball has not made a legal catch.

If breaking some sort of "plane of the fence" applied, then a player couldn't reach over the fence to catch a ball in the air--something that is done all the time.

[mcrowder]

Yea... but you're referring to MLB, which is under OBR. the rule is worded completely differently. It's worded differently in ASA too. Strangely, NCAA baseball is worded more similarly with OBR, as if FED baseball.

But talking NCAA or FED Softball Rules, a ball has to be caught within the playing field, over LBT, to be an out. I've posted the relevant definitions.

This exact conversation dominated about an hour of a clinic I attended with the SWAC umpires a couple of years ago.

[greymule]

But talking NCAA or FED Softball Rules, a ball has to be caught within the playing field, over LBT, to be an out.

Well, I won't contradict you since you seem to have done some investigation in this area. But this would mean that F3 couldn't make a legal catch of a foul pop by standing at the fence and reaching over. I do NCAA and have never heard of this. Where is it in the NCAA book? It sure isn't under "catch."

[mcrowder]

Well, that sitch is slightly different. I (and the clinicians that day) admit that the rulebook is not 100% clear in its definitions. By the definitions listed above, if the player leans into DBT to catch a ball falls, and contacts DBT, it's pretty easy to justify calling this not a catch.

The scenario you describe does not fit the definition of a catch, and also doesn't fit the definition of a dead ball (in the case of foul ball territory.) It's grey area. One of those "rule on something not written in the rules" things that have never been fixed. Even the clinician most in favor of the Torii Hunter homer-saving catch being a homer (which, technically in NCAA rules, IS a homer, despite "custom") admitted that since the rules support nothing, and custom dictates an out, we should call this an out.

In case you missed earlier, I did mention that even though the homer-saving catch is technically a homer (see the part I posted about a 4-base award) - the consensus was that since it would be nearly impossible to be POSITIVE the ball was not initially contacted over LBT on a home run (maybe with a 6 man crew, a very high fly, and a very fast URF or ULF), the likely call is an out.

It's only the case where the player lands in DBT that it is CLEAR that we don't have a catch, by the definitions we are given.

The true culprit here is the definitions themselves not covering every possibility. Not the first time ever on that.

[greymule]

NCAA book

For a legal catch:

a. A fielder must catch and have secure possession of the ball before stepping, touching or falling into a dead-ball area.

[My note: This would lead me to believe that she can in fact contact DBT after a catch.]

b. A fielder who falls over or through the fence after making a catch shall be credited with the catch.

Where is there anything in the NCAA book to indicate or even hint that the fielder cannot reach over DBT to make a catch?

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by greymule
NCAA book

For a legal catch:

a. A fielder must catch and have secure possession of the ball before stepping, touching or falling into a dead-ball area.

It's the "Falling into a dead-ball area" part. The fielder must catch it before falling into a dead ball area... which includes anything on the other side of the fence. If the fielder is airborne, she is falling. If she's falling into DBT, she must have possession before crossing into DBT.

[My note: This would lead me to believe that she can in fact contact DBT after a catch.]

b. A fielder who falls over or through the fence after making a catch shall be credited with the catch.

If she falls over or through the fence AFTER making the catch, it's a catch. AFTER being the important word. To make the catch, she has to secure possession BEFORE falling over the fence or falling into DBT. Note that it doesn't say she must make the catch before CONTACTING DBT... it says before she falls over, through, or into DBT.

Where is there anything in the NCAA book to indicate or even hint that the fielder cannot reach over DBT to make a catch?

Regarding a foul ball, no where if she's not airborne. The one clinician that insisted this was not a catch was, in the majority's opinion, leaning far too heavily on the "Falling into DBT" part. Regarding a home run, one of the definitions above state that once the ball crosses into DBT over the home run fence, it's a 4-base award. The catch in this case happens after the ball has already become a home run.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota


What is interesting about this play (as "filled in" by me) is that the rule book(s) do not explicitly address the situation of a player going airborne while in LBT, but not making contact with the ball / making the catch until fully within DBT (but still airborne).

Well, yeah, ASA does.

Rule 1 Catch/No Catch

CATCH

A. A catch is a legally caught ball, which occurs when the field catches a batted, pitched or thrown ball with the hand(s) or glove/mitt.

3. The fielder's feet must be within the field of play, touching the "out of play" line or in the air after leaving live ball territory in order to have a valid catch.

[greymule]

I can see that this is hinging on how "before falling into dead ball territory" is defined. I believe that the rulesmakers intended this to mean "before the airborne player touches DBT." To interpret "falling" in this context as indicating the technical act of dropping toward the center of the earth as a result of the force of gravity is absurd.

It says "falling into a dead-ball area," not "falling toward a dead-ball area"! The air over DBT is not DBT.

Maybe "before having fallen into dead-ball territory" would be better.

[mcrowder]

I agree.