Is this a catch?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
Interesting discussion on the eteamz coach's board...

NCAA rules (AZ v TX game).

Assume (to fill in the scenario):

Batter hits a long fly ball that is clearly going over the temporary fence. Fielder leaps after the fly ball, knocking over the section of the fence to the right of the section the ball is clearing. With her entire body behind the fence, but in the air, she catches the ball.

Is this a catch or a home run?



The ruling of the game umpires was home run.

Also, comments on ASA, NFHS, AFA, whatever...

Speaking ASA

This is a catch as long as the fielder retained possession of the ball when hitting the ground. At that point, it is also a dead ball unless the fielder was laying on top of the fence and never touched the ground outside the field of play. If that were the case, live ball.

[alphaump]

out

[mcrowder]

Alpha - just "out"?

In NCAA rules this is a home run. How do you have an out?

[Antonella]

Rule 1 - Sec. 15. CATCH.
A catch is a legally caught ball, which occurs when the fielder catches a batted or thrown ball with his hand(s) or glove.
A. (...)
B.(...)
C. The fielder’s feet must be:
1) When moving toward the out-of-play line, the feet must either: (a) be within the playing area, (b) touching the ‘out-of-play’ line or(c) both feet in the air after leaving the playing area, in order to have a valid catch.
2) A player, who is in dead ball territory and returns to the playing area, must have both feet touching the playable area. In order to have a legally caught ball.

[Skahtboi]

As others have said previously, this is really a HTBT call. However, with the information given and going strictly by NCAA code, this is a homerun.

[alphaump]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Alpha - just "out"?

In NCAA rules this is a home run. How do you have an out?

Feet left ground in fair territory - the rest is a wash in sitch, other runners unknown. Read Dakotas post.

[mcrowder]

You're new here, I think... so you're getting a little benefit of the doubt. But if you're going to state a case that is contrary to the rules, at least back it up with the rule you are misinterpreting to get to your ruling.

In NCAA, by definition, this is a home run.

Page 16 - For a legal catch, a fielder must catch and have secure posession of the ball before ... falling into a dead-ball area. A fielder who falls over ... the fence AFTER making a catch shall be credited with the catch.

Page 18 - Dead-ball territory - That area beyond any real playing field boundary such as a fence...

Page 143 - The batter is awarded home plate with no liability to be put out when a fair batted fly ball ... leaves the playing field in fair territory without touching the ground or going through the fence.

If you disagree, what rule are you using to get there.

[Edited by mcrowder on Mar 3rd, 2006 at 11:04 AM]

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Alpha - just "out"?

In NCAA rules this is a home run. How do you have an out?

Heck, yeah. He don't need no stinking rules.

[Dakota]

When I saw the photo, my "call" was OUT, but then I was basing that on ASA, not NCAA. I did ask for other-than-NCAA interpretations at the bottom of the OP.

If the fielder became airborne while her feet were within live ball territory, and if she held onto the ball after crashing back to earth, this is a catch in ASA.

What is interesting about this play (as "filled in" by me) is that the rule book(s) do not explicitly address the situation of a player going airborne while in LBT, but not making contact with the ball / making the catch until fully within DBT (but still airborne).

Clearly, she is behind the fence at the point of the photo. If that is the point of contact with the ball / catch, then it becomes interesting.

She did not make the catch and then leave the field.

When she comes down she will NOT be on top of a collapsed temporary fense.

It hit upon some of the edges of the rules.

[WestMichBlue]

I think that we are getting hung up on the collapsed fence and I am not sure that it enters into the play. In most codes we are going to credit a catch made in the air, regardless of the location of the ball or body at time of the catch as long as the feet last touched live ball territory before becoming airborne.

If that was a solid fence and the fielder simply leaped over it and caught the ball on the other side of the fence before landing, it would be a legal catch.

The single picture does not tell us when the ball was caught. Possible the fielder was still in contact with the fence when she caught the ball. But we do know that the fence is down and the player is still in the air, thus she did not make a catch while in contact with a temporary fence that was on the ground or horizontal. Thus I believe that it should be a catch in any code. Only when the catch is made while the player is in contact with a horizontal fence do we get a different answer in different code: catch in ASA, no catch in NFHS and NCAA.

I say that it was ruled wrong in the game; it should have been a catch.

WMB

BTW – I suspect the rules makers were thinking of plastic netting when they wrote the rules on collapsible fencing. For that, the weight of the player must be on the fence for it to reach a horizontal position. If the player is laying or standing of that fence and it is less than flat it is a catch. If flat, then no catch in NFHS and NCAA.

[alphaump]

Why arent you attacking Irish the same way. If I said all I officiate is ASA, would that help?
Not to throw you under the bus (Irish), but thats what I see in the pic. Heck with the benefit of the doubt or the ruling that was called, that wasnt the question. I answered the the question, out, and said why I felt that way. Thanks for siting all the rules, thats why its an out.

[mcrowder]

WMB - in NCAA, even with a real fence - whether homer or in foul territory, if the player leaps from the playing field, catches it over DBT, and lands in DBT, it is not a catch.

Interestingly, in a Torii Hunteresque homer-save play in NCAA, by RULE, it is not a catch if the ball has already crossed the boundary... but it's just so impossible to see this for sure that custom has you ruling a homer on this when the player comes back down in live ball territory.

ASA, I too have an out in all circumstances as long as she's not already contacted DBT before the catch.

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by alphaump
If I said all I officiate is ASA, would that help?

YES!

That's why Mike starts most of his responses with "Speaking ASA..."

All you said was "out" without clarifying at all. The OP mentioned multiple rulesets.

And I didn't think I was attacking you in THIS thread! I thought I was giving you the benefit of the doubt as a newby, and asking you to clarify your response (which you initially did not). It was not meant as an attack at all.

[alphaump]

[i]Originally posted by mcrowder

And I didn't think I was attacking you in THIS thread! [/B]

And you are worried about my offenses.

[WestMichBlue]

WMB - in NCAA, even with a real fence - whether homer or in foul territory, if the player leaps from the playing field, catches it over DBT, and lands in DBT, it is not a catch

mcrowder - please take this a little further. All I have is my reading of the catch definition and I don't see that interpretation.

Both the NCAA and NFHS rules are identical: "For a legal catch a fielder must catch and have secure possession of the ball before stepping, touching or falling into a dead-ball area." The rule does not define where the ball is at; only where the fielder ends.

Stepping or touching DBT is not a problem; the question is if the fielder leaps in the air, when is she falling into DBT?

If the body is partially over DBT but the hand (with the glove) makes the catch in live ball area and the body lands in DBT is that a catch?

If the body is partially over LBT, but the catching hand is over DBT, and the body lands in DBT, is that not a catch?

Note also that both NFHS and NCAA then say "A fielder who falls over or through the fence after making a catch shall be credited with the catch.” Again, the book does not define where the ball was at the time of catch, only where the fielder ended.

WMB