So what's the call here?

Al · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 23, 2006, 07:18pm

Here's the play...Girl trying to turn an easy triple into a home run. The throw from the cut off was about 9 or 10 feet up the third base line. The catcher charges up the line and catches the ball on the fly just as the runner is passing her. She attempted a swipe tag but missed. At the time of that attempted tag the runner went to the outside edge of the base line. (her left foot was right on the 3 foot line as she passed the fielders missed tag) But the momentum from her sudden change of direction, as she tried to avoid the tag drew her way outside the 3 foot base line. She even lost her footing as she was closing in on home plate. The catcher was closing in on her, but was a few inches short of tagging the runner who scrambled on her hands and knees to the plate. I got some noise on this one!!! It was a pool game and I made the call against an out of state team. Their coach quickly yelled out my call was the "worst call he ever seen"! So what's the call?

Justme · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 23, 2006, 08:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Al
Here's the play...Girl trying to turn an easy triple into a home run. The throw from the cut off was about 9 or 10 feet up the third base line. The catcher charges up the line and catches the ball on the fly just as the runner is passing her. She attempted a swipe tag but missed. At the time of that attempted tag the runner went to the outside edge of the base line. (her left foot was right on the 3 foot line as she passed the fielders missed tag) But the momentum from her sudden change of direction, as she tried to avoid the tag drew her way outside the 3 foot base line. She even lost her footing as she was closing in on home plate. The catcher was closing in on her, but was a few inches short of tagging the runner who scrambled on her hands and knees to the plate. I got some noise on this one!!! It was a pool game and I made the call against an out of state team. Their coach quickly yelled out my call was the "worst call he ever seen"! So what's the call?

Plays like this are difficult for some one that wasn't there to rule on. I would say that if the BR ran "way outside" of her already established running lane to avoid F2 standing there ready to make the tag then she should be called out.

You sound like you might be a new umpire? Let me ask you personally this, if the BR rounds 1B headed full speed for 2B, where due you judge the 3' running lane to be? The same question for the BR rounding 3B heading home?

[Edited by Justme on Jan 23rd, 2006 at 08:10 PM]

Al · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 23, 2006, 09:15pm

Hi justme,

Yes, I am new to Upiring but I was a coach for two years and played baseball and softball my entire childhood all the way through high school.

You asked..."Let me ask you personally this, if the BR rounds 1B headed full speed for 2B, where due you judge the 3' running lane to be? The same question for the BR rounding 3B heading home"?

The base-line is different from the base-path. If a runner rounds a base and goes ten feet into the outfield where a fielder attempts to tag her she will have 3' from either side as her base-path. I had this happen twice last year where the runner in both cases stayed within her BASE-PATH all the way to the next base and I called them both safe. Both times (different teams) there was at least one coach that said she was out of the base line and should have been called out! I explained she established her BASE-PATH and didn't go out of it while the fielder tried to tag her, nor when she tried to catch up with her on her way to the base.

In the play I posted where a girl was coming home I should have mentioned the girl was right in the center of the BASE-LINE when the attempted tag and the moving away from that tag came into play. But at that time no foot went outside of the base-line (which in this case was also her base-path)until she had already passed the girls attempted tag and was now very close to home plate. On our fields (from third to home only) they have a line 3 foot line inside and outside of the direct path to the plate, but it runs only part way to the plate. The runner was past that line when her momentum nearly took her into the backstop. A very good umpire; (also the admistrator) who also is a respected coach of 12 & under and 16 & under f/p was there and said I made the right call. I called the runner safe!

Justme · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 23, 2006, 09:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Al
Hi justme,

Yes, I am new to Upiring but I was a coach for two years and played baseball and softball my entire childhood all the way through high school.

You asked..."Let me ask you personally this, if the BR rounds 1B headed full speed for 2B, where due you judge the 3' running lane to be? The same question for the BR rounding 3B heading home"?

The base-line is different from the base-path. If a runner rounds a base and goes ten feet into the outfield where a fielder attempts to tag her she will have 3' from either side as her base-path. I had this happen twice last year where the runner in both cases stayed within her BASE-PATH all the way to the next base and I called them both safe. Both times (different teams) there was at least one coach that said she was out of the base line and should have been called out! I explained she established her BASE-PATH and didn't go out of it while the fielder tried to tag her, nor when she tried to catch up with her on her way to the base.

In the play I posted where a girl was coming home I should have mentioned the girl was right in the center of the BASE-LINE when the attempted tag and the moving away from that tag came into play. But at that time no foot went outside of the base-line (which in this case was also her base-path)until she had already passed the girls attempted tag and was now very close to home plate. On our fields (from third to home only) they have a line 3 foot line inside and outside of the direct path to the plate, but it runs only part way to the plate. The runner was past that line when her momentum nearly took her into the backstop. A very good umpire; (also the admistrator) who also is a respected coach of 12 & under and 16 & under f/p was there and said I made the right call. I called the runner safe!

Reading your latest post it sounds like you did make a good call.

Welcome to umpiring where usually your popularity rating is 50% at best. Remember, coaches and parents see plays with their hearts....umpires see plays with their eyes.

Mike Walsh · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 24, 2006, 12:46am

Quote:

Originally posted by Al
Hi justme,

In the play I posted where a girl was coming home I should have mentioned the girl was right in the center of the BASE-LINE when the attempted tag and the moving away from that tag came into play. But at that time no foot went outside of the base-line (which in this case was also her base-path)until she had already passed the girls attempted tag and was now very close to home plate. On our fields (from third to home only) they have a line 3 foot line inside and outside of the direct path to the plate, but it runs only part way to the plate. The runner was past that line when her momentum nearly took her into the backstop. A very good umpire; (also the admistrator) who also is a respected coach of 12 & under and 16 & under f/p was there and said I made the right call. I called the runner safe!

She was out because her momentum was exaggerated and seen by everyone. No, wait, she was safe because she did not go more than 3 feet outside of the base line to avoid a tag.

Out might be the expected call, so I would not have a problem with it. Safe might be technically correct, so that's OK. This is a judgment call, but it is your judgment, not the coach's. Had you made the other call, the offensive coach would have been the one on your case. Call it your way, forget the coaches.

Mike

scottk_61 · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 24, 2006, 12:48am

Here is a thought for you.
In your play, you say the catcher gets the ball "RIGHT" as the runner gets there.
Why would you not rule obstruction in this case?

I would like to hear what you think about that idea.

Al · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 24, 2006, 01:31am

"In your play, you say the catcher gets the ball "RIGHT" as the runner gets there.
Why would you not rule obstruction in this case"?

Scott, I didn't call obstruction because the fielder did not obstruct the runner, but caught the ball outside the base-line then tried to swipe-tag the runner. She would have had an easy play if the cut-off had made a throw closer to the plate, where she would not have had to worry about obstruction, or missing a swipe tag. As it was the fielder played it right but missed the tag. Had the fielder gone directly in front of the runner when she caught the ball I would have called obstruction and awarded the runner home.

As Mike said... in plays of judgment a close call is going to have a happy coach and a possible angry one.
I learned early on that it's best to call them as I see them no matter what the score is, or what coach is on the losing end of a close play. (as you know some coaches are nasty). Some seem to forget the most important things are to show good sportmanship, have respect for the umpire in judgment calls, and setting a good example to the young players. After a close play I don't want to second guess myself, or try to "make it up" to a coach that is trying to work the next close play to go his way.

scottk_61 · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 24, 2006, 01:44am

Quote:

Originally posted by Al
"In your play, you say the catcher gets the ball "RIGHT" as the runner gets there.
Why would you not rule obstruction in this case"?

Scott, I didn't call obstruction because the fielder did not obstruct the runner, but caught the ball outside the base-line then tried to swipe-tag the runner. She would have had an easy play if the cut-off had made a throw closer to the plate, where she would not have had to worry about obstruction, or missing a swipe tag. As it was the fielder played it right but missed the tag. Had the fielder gone directly in front of the runner when she caught the ball I would have called obstruction and awarded the runner home.

I guess the way I read the play description, it sounds (to me) as if the catcher is probably in the basepath of the runner.

Now whether the runner is on the clay path between home and third is irrelevant as the runner determines their base path as they take off. I have rarely seen a runner "round" third and stay on the marked path but usually get a different path.

I am probably reading more into the play description than you intended.

IRISHMAFIA · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 24, 2006, 09:40am

Quote:

Originally posted by Al
Here's the play...Girl trying to turn an easy triple into a home run. The throw from the cut off was about 9 or 10 feet up the third base line. The catcher charges up the line and catches the ball on the fly just as the runner is passing her. She attempted a swipe tag but missed. At the time of that attempted tag the runner went to the outside edge of the base line. (her left foot was right on the 3 foot line as she passed the fielders missed tag) But the momentum from her sudden change of direction, as she tried to avoid the tag drew her way outside the 3 foot base line. She even lost her footing as she was closing in on home plate. The catcher was closing in on her, but was a few inches short of tagging the runner who scrambled on her hands and knees to the plate. I got some noise on this one!!! It was a pool game and I made the call against an out of state team. Their coach quickly yelled out my call was the "worst call he ever seen"! So what's the call?

Safe.

SRW · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 24, 2006, 10:49am

Quote:

Originally posted by Justme
Welcome to umpiring where usually your popularity rating is 50% at best. Remember, coaches and parents see plays with their hearts....umpires see plays with their eyes.

Hey, that's my tag-line!

booker227 · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 24, 2006, 12:42pm

Runner is safe. No obstruction on the part of the catcher, -a runner must be hindered or contact must be made-but no tag either. Runner is allowed some leaway in regards to the line when being played upon. Judgement call on your part. You saw what you saw so the heck with it. Always remember, you are always only fifty percent right.
You wrote about the three foot line? Between home and first, yes, but between third and home, no. A runner's momentum makes the line.

Good call on your part.

CecilOne · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 24, 2006, 04:01pm

If that was the worst call he's ever seen, you should have welcomed him to his first day of sports.

wrt SRW's tag line comment, we must be paying attention.

SRW · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 24, 2006, 04:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
wrt SRW's tag line comment, we must be paying attention.

You're the only ones...

mcrowder · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 24, 2006, 05:40pm

Safe.

AND obstruction, likely.

Question, since you were there, and I wasn't... when the runner FIRST veered off of her direct line to the plate, was the ball still on it's way to the catcher, or was it in the possession of the catcher.

PS - the 3-feet thing applies to her movement while avoiding the tag, not her movement after the tag attempt is over (losing her balance, so to speak). This is my reason for the safe call, even without the OBS.

IRISHMAFIA · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 24, 2006, 05:53pm

The throw from the cut off was about 9 or 10 feet up the third base line. The catcher charges up the line and catches the ball on the fly just as the runner is passing her.

What am I missing here? How can their be obstruction when the runner has already passed the defender (quote above)?

The catcher was just contacting the ball as the runner was passing her. There was no mention of the C impeding the runner prior to catching the ball, so there isn't any OBS there. And, unless the C had 8' tenacles...er, arms, there would be no reason for the runner to have a sudden "change of direction".

Something is missing from the scenario.