So what's the call here?

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
The throw from the cut off was about 9 or 10 feet up the third base line. The catcher charges up the line and catches the ball on the fly just as the runner is passing her.

What am I missing here? How can their be obstruction when the runner has already passed the defender (quote above)?

The catcher was just contacting the ball as the runner was passing her. There was no mention of the C impeding the runner prior to catching the ball, so there isn't any OBS there. And, unless the C had 8' tenacles...er, arms, there would be no reason for the runner to have a sudden "change of direction".

Something is missing from the scenario.

I agree, something is missing.
That is why I was wondering about obstruction, as I read it, the runner had twisted off course because of the catcher being in the way.........at least that is the way it sounded to me.
In other words, there was a block that caused a change of direction without the ball.............................

I dunno, maybe he needs to rewrite the scenario

[Al]

"And, unless the C had 8' tenacles...er, arms, there would be no reason for the runner to have a sudden "change of direction".

I wish you were there Mike cause it appears I am not good at painting the picture.

Let me remind everybody that this was a pool game and involved better than average teams. Even though they were 7 and 8 year old girls they played very well. Most on the team from my home town played travel ball all year long and had very good coaches. Anyway, the catcher did everything right in getting to the ball fast etc. The runner did a good job avoiding the tag without going more than 3' away when the fielder was making a tag attempt.

A while after the game was over and most folks had already left the field (the last thing I want to happen is to be seen talking to the winning team) the runner (whom I knew from when I was coaching) told me she saw another girl do the same thing she did and the umpire called her safe too. I told her I felt very good about the safe call and the visiting coach was not only wrong but a bad sport. Only one time in two years as a coach did I question a call. It was in an important and close game and I though the throw to first was there in plenty of time. But all I did was say "Com'on ump she was out" After the inning was over he came over to me and said Coach your first baseman was bobbling the ball. I told him I didn't see that from the angle I was at and quickly realized I was wrong. Even my player told me the ball was moving in her glove. I felt like an idiot and learned a lesson. Rambling on. Back to the reply...

There was a need to quickly change direction to avoid the tag because the fielder was close to the base-line and the runner was close to the fielder when she started her swipe tag. The tag attempt was made just as the runner was starting to pass her. If she didn't move to the outside edge of the running path she realized she may have gotten tagged out. As it turned out the tag attempt was not really that close, but if the runner did not move she likely would have been swipe-tagged out.

Hey mcrowder ..."when the runner FIRST veered off of her direct line to the plate, was the ball still on it's way to the catcher, or was it in the possession of the catcher".

..The ball was already in the cathers glove at the time the runner started to veer away from the impending tag to come.

[mcrowder]

If that's true, then no obs, obviously. I'm having trouble visualizing this though.

On one hand, we have a catcher with possession of the ball, ahead of the runner, with the runner in the basepath.

On the other hand, it sounds like the ball got there so late that the runner was already out of reach of a tag.

Let me ask it this way...

At the moment the runner was passing by the fielder, where were A) the fielder, B) the runner, and C) the ball, in relation to the actual baseLINE (not path).

[Al]

Hi mcrowder,

"At the moment the runner was passing by the fielder, where were A) the fielder, B) the runner, and C) the ball, in relation to the actual baseLINE (not path)".

A: THE FIELDER... was about 9 feet up the line towards third base and about three feet from the center of the base-line.

B: THE RUNNER... was in about the same area, perhaps a half foot or so closer to third base... if measuring in that direction, but she was in the middle of the base-line, which put her 3' away from the fielder... if measuring in that direction. But she (the runner) was just starting to change her direction knowing an imminent tag attempt was coming, because the fielder had already caught the ball and was starting an attempted swipe tag.

C: THE BALL... was in the fielders glove as she just caught the incoming throw from the cut-off fielder.

You would have enjoyed seeing this play. It's the kind of play that makes softball the best game in the world IMO. But it's the kind of play that brings out the worst in some coaches.

[greymule]

Since OBS wasn't mentioned in the original situation, I'll assume that's not the issue.

The runner legally avoided the swipe tag. Then, after having passed the catcher, she moved out of the baseline, but not to avoid a tag. No violation. At this point, the catcher attempted to apply the tag, the runner's base path had become from where she was to home plate. Apparently, with F2 chasing her, she did not leave that basepath to avoid a tag, so she's safe.

Now if after missing the swipe tag the catcher immediately pursued the runner and then the runner's momentum carried her out of the base path and thus away from a tag, that's another story. But from the description, I don't think that's what happened here.

I've heard "the worst call I ever saw" and "the worst ump I ever saw" many times, and so has every ump I know.

In terms of base path calls, I've seen everything, including: Runner rounds 3B with a wide turn and stops halfway home, about 6 feet on the foul side, when he sees F2 catch the throw at the plate. F2 starts to chase the runner back to 3B but does not get within 20 feet of him as the runner retreats to 3B. Ump calls out for base path violation.

[Al]

Hey greymule,

You have perfectly understood the situation I was trying to convey....

"The runner legally avoided the swipe tag. Then, after having passed the catcher, she moved out of the baseline, but not to avoid a tag. No violation. At this point, the catcher attempted to apply the tag, the runner's base path had become from where she was to home plate. Apparently, with F2 chasing her, she did not leave that basepath to avoid a tag, so she's safe".

"Now if after missing the swipe tag the catcher immediately pursued the runner and then the runner's momentum carried her out of the base path and thus away from a tag, that's another story. But from the description, I don't think that's what happened".

You should be a writer... you have a good way of making a somewhat complicated explanation of a play very clear and easily understood. THANK YOU!

P.S.

"In terms of base path calls, I've seen everything, including: Runner rounds 3B with a wide turn and stops halfway home, about 6 feet on the foul side, when he sees F2 catch the throw at the plate. F2 starts to chase the runner back to 3B but does not get within 20 feet of him as the runner retreats to 3B. Ump calls out for base path violation".

I'd like to see him try to defend that call with the rule book!!!

[greymule]

I appreciate the compliment, Al.

[mcrowder]

Thanks, Al. Now I can see it in my head. Definitely the right call.

[booker227]

I don't see obstruction. I believe that at least one of two things must happen for there to be obstruction. One is physical contact with the runner and the defensive player who isn't in possession of the ball, and second, the progress of the runner must be so impeded that the runner stops, changes direction, etc., and in the mind of the umpire the defenive players position forced the runner to change her progress.
You don't have either here, so there isn't obstruction.

[mcrowder]

Booker, please crack open a rulebook.

After getting Al's complete description of this play, I agree there was no OBS on this play.

But please don't mislead our younger and newer umpires by telling them that physical contact or an extreme altering of the runner's path is required for OBS. That's utter BS. ANY alteration, if caused by a fielder without possession of the ball, is OBS.

I had pictured the OP as F2 up the baseline (and IN the baseline/basepath) before the ball was actually there, and the runner reacting to that by curving toward the outside of the baseline, and then swerving away as the ball arrived. Al has clarified that F2 was actually NOT in the baseline (or basepath) when waiting for the ball - so no OBS... but in the sitch I describe here, it WOULD be OBS, even without contact. If the runner ALTERS her path due to a fielder in the basepath without possession of the ball, it's OBS.

[Edited by mcrowder on Jan 26th, 2006 at 03:23 PM]

[dweezil24]

OK, question from one of the younger and newer umpires:

Do we call obstruction regardless of where the runner ends up? Or only if they fail to reach a base they would have normally reached if the obstruction had not occured?

For instance, if a runner has to change direction between 1st and 2nd because of a fielder and ends up at 2nd base, but I know that there was no way they would have made it to 3rd even without the obstruction, should I call it and give the guy 3rd? Or call it and leave the guy at 2nd? Or give a warning?

[Smiley]

Give the delayed dead ball signal when it happens. If she gets the base she would have gotten without the OBS, simply state, "Obstruction, no award" or similar words.

[mcrowder]

You will always "call" obstruction when you see it. But you don't immediately kill the play. (Hoping the following comment doesn't hijack this post - if you disagree with the following, please make it a separate thread! ) Speaking ASA, you should also determine at the moment that you call (and signal) obstruction what base that runner, in your mind, would have achieved without the OBS - THIS is the base she is protected to (don't wait until later to make this determination!).

If the runner achieves the base you were going to award, you essentially disregard the OBS - no award to be made. At most, state "OBS, no award" as mentioned by the previous poster. Many times you'll find that there's no necessity to do anything, or that doing something only confuses the issue.

Also note that there is not always a base "award" (as there is in some rulesets for Smallball), and that it's possible that the base "protected to" and the base "awarded" may be different (example: Runner OBS'd rounding first base is PROTECTED between 1st and 2nd, but not necessarily awarded 2nd if you feel she would not have achieved 2nd base without the OBS).

PS - there's no such thing as a "warning" for OBS, if you mean warning to mean "If you do that again, there'll be a penalty". If a fielder at a younger age has committed an OBS that ended up resulting in no award, there's no harm in mentioning what happened to her coach, in the interests of coaching/training/etc. But at older ages - you probably shouldn't even go there.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Good points.

I always announce the OBS unless the runner attained the base to which I protected them regardless of what base they will be "awarded".

I do this for two reasons:

1. It answers the offense's question before it get's asked, hopefully

2. It makes both teams aware that the umpires are watching and will make the call. Sometimes, that may be just as important as making the call itself.

[CecilOne]

Can we get this engraved on backstops or dugouts or somewhere?

"But please don't mislead our younger and newer umpires by telling them that physical contact or an extreme altering of the runner's path is required for OBS. That's utter BS. ANY alteration, if caused by a fielder without possession of the ball, is OBS."