Need a call

[oppool]

Just wondering of this SIT: the rule would be the same in FED and ASA as it is in OBR


Start of a new inning pitcher throws B1 hits one out of the park for apperant home-run when the field umpire see's F8 coming out of the dug-out and defensive coach comes out and argues no-play home-run should not count.

What's your call??



Hope everybody has a great Easter

Don

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Don.......

I know there is a reference that this would be a "do over" in the OBR based leagues......the homerun would be nullified and the batter would start over with a clean count at the plate.

I cannot find anything that addresses the situation in ASA or FED.

It is probably in the casebook......but I could not find it with a cursory look.


Have a great Easter All!
Joel

[Edited by Gulf Coast Blue on Apr 15th, 2001 at 11:11 AM]

[Roger Greene]

Don,
For Fed see 1-1-3. "At the time of the pitch, all fielders shall be on fair ground except the catcher who shall be in the catcher's box. PENALTY: Illegal Pitch."

So, if this was a Fed game you have an illegal pitch, and the offense would get the option of the play or the penalty.
What you also have is a PU who has fouled up. At the beginnning of each inning, and after every dead ball( including a foul ball) the PU must put the ball back into play. This is a pet peeve of mine, and is particularly important in baseball games, where a pick off play may be attempted.

Before the PU can put the ball in play he has to be sure of
the following:

(1)The pitcher is on (not near) the pitcher's plate with the ball in her possession.
(2)The catcher is in position in the catcher's box.
(3)The batter is in the batter's box and ready to receive the pitch.
(4)All runners have retouched their proper base.
and (5) all other fielders are in fair territory.

If I'm the defensive coach on your sitch, I'm going to complain that the ball shouldn't have been put in play before my fielder was in fair territory.

USSSA matches Fed on this I believe.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

[Edited by Roger Greene on Apr 15th, 2001 at 12:26 PM]

[oppool]

Joel & Roger

Your at your Easter best

OBR is a do over all fielders must be on the field for action to start. No home-run batter back up with 0-0 count.

Roger answer for FED is the same as ASA the offensive coach would have the option on a "Illegal Pitch" or if the BR in this situation made it to 1st and all other runner advanced then the play would stand. Home-run counts.

Myself I like ASA ruling on this better than OBR which seems to penilize the wrong side to me.

Thanks for the replies

Don

ASA rule 6-5-a

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Thanks Roger.......

ASA rule is 6-5-A The pitcher shall not delier a pitch unless all defensive players are positioned in fair territory, except the catcher who must be in the catcher's box. Penalty is also an illegal pitch.

I always give a quick count of players before I start an inning........I once was coaching a game where the other team had 11 players on the field......I pointed it out to the umpire.......she visibly counted players after that.........(grin)

Joel

[mo99]

I think the posters to this question answered it accurately,but I would like to comment on the play.When I read this question earlier this afternoon,I went to work researching my manuals and casebooks.The language of "ALL FIELDERS MUST BE IN FAIR TERRITORY PRIOR TO THE PITCH"leaves a grey area in my interpretation.Does this mean all players in the game,or all players on the field?I wont allow a pitch to be thrown,if a player is on the field of play but NOT in fair territory.It is the coaches responsibility to make sure his defense has the correct number of players in the game.If he has more than 9 then it is my responsibility.I would not penalize the offense for an act not any fault of thier own.The NCAA,FED,and ASA books do state that it is an illegal pitch if all fielders are not in fair territory.That is the ruling I would use because the illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball and gives the offense the option to take the result of the play.Which of course they would take the home run.As for the OBR rule,in which I am unfamiliar,would my grey area question come into play?

Jeff

[Edited by mo99 on Apr 15th, 2001 at 08:41 PM]

[oppool]

Jeff

I am not that familiar with OBR rules either took the question off a site called stevetheump.com pretty neat site but pertains to strictly baseball but my understanding in OBR is that the fielders do not have to be in fair territory just in the field of play. His actual response was "For a valid play to take place the defense must have 9 players on the field"

I believe in ASA they do mean all the players in the game but do not state a # because in fast-pitch this could be 8 if playing short-handed or in slow-pitch it could be 9 or 10


JMHO

Don

[IRISHMAFIA]

Don just hit on an item no one else touched on yet and that is slow pitch, which more commonly plays short-handed than fast pitch teams.

There is no rule which requires a particular number of defensive players to be in the field of play, just where those out there must be located at the time of the pitch.

However, in all styles of ASA play, it is an illegal pitch. And in this scenario, the batter and all runners would have advanced at least one base, therefore nullifying the illegal pitch. In slowpitch, it is nullified the instant the batter offers at the pitch.

And if someone will not accept this argument, there is the standard 10.1.L, "The umpire will not penalize a team for any infraction of a rule when imposing the penalty would be an advantage to the offending team." In this case, it would be.

[Roger Greene]

Don,
Re: OBR.(This is not a softball ruling)

All defensive players (except catcher) must be in fair territory at the TOP. The definititon of in fair territory is any part of body in fair territory. The umpire is not to put the ball in play untill this requirement is met.

As I understand the ruling, if the umpire mistakenly gives the pitcher the signal to play/pitch and then discovers that the requirement was not met, then the ball was not lawfully put in play, and therefor we have what is commonly called a "do over".

In reality the play "never happened" and the umpire fouled up.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

[oppool]

Roger

Thanks for clarifing OBR I knew I had seen infielders holding on runner before with at least one foot in foul territory so I wasnt for sure


Thanks

Don

[David Van Milligen]

Being only the defensive coach would bring up the posibility of taking away the home run, I would suggest, that his team is now playing 8 for the remainder of the game. Once a team plays with less them nine they may not return to nine.