Whats the call??

[Bandit]

Hey guys, been busy and am just now getting to catch up on the threads. Did Varsity game last night with snow blowing in the 3rd and 4th innings. Good thing we got the run rule in the bottom of the 5th. Gotta love those passed balls with run rule standing on third with two outs. Wanted to comment on the coach bring the Rule Book onto the field. Up to this year have to say I aggreed with the notion that the coach better not bring the book onto the field. Went to a Federation Cert meeting this spring that the Instructor brought up a interesting point...If we indeed did make a mistake as umpires and the coach can approach us in a manner to point out the mistake that is civil, what is wrong with the book being brought onto the field ? While she stated that each situation would have to be measured for it's own merits and that the coach better not come out saying that lets take 15 minutes to find the particular rule because he/she just knows its somewhere in this book. She did ask that we not immediatly jump to the defense if the book was brought onto the field. Any other views?

[mick]

Originally posted by Bandit
...While she stated that each situation would have to be measured for it's own merits and that the coach better not come out saying that lets take 15 minutes to find the particular rule because he/she just knows its somewhere in this book. She did ask that we not immediatly jump to the defense if the book was brought onto the field. Any other views?

Bandit,
I have no problem with that (unless a tournament UIC says not to allow it).
My job is to get it right, or make it right.
mick

[SamNVa]

I realize that this flies in the face of tradition, but being confident in my knowldege and application of the rules, I've never had a problem with a coach bring a rulebook onto the field, if it was done in a civil manner. Now a coach who comes storming out of the dugout shouting and waving the book will get a wwarning to change his attitude before he gets too close.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Okay, now that the coach has civily brought the rule book onto the field and is showing you the rule which under THEIR interpretation justifies THEIR argument, what are you going to do when you tell them that THEIR interpretation is incorrect according to .

Do you honestly believe the coach who has gone through all the trouble to look up this rule and enter the field in front of everyone to show you who knows what, is just going to say, "Oh, okay" and walk back to the dugout?

As others are confident in their knowledge of the rules to face the coach with the book, I, too, am confident. Confident enough to tell the coach the he has had his say (without a rule book) and we are moving on with the game. If he still protests, I tell him to give me his scorebook so I can sign it, inform the opposing coach the game is being played under protest and then move on.

As an umpire or a tournament UIC, I have never seen both coaches walk away happy from any argument, even when there has been iron-clad evidence (even with a rule book) to prove them wrong. My feeling is that the only times a rule book comes onto the field is if the umpire is unsure themselves and requests a coach's input or a UIC uses one in a conference involving a protest.

But those are just my opinions. We go with what works and it is not the same for everyone.

[mick]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Okay, now that the coach has civily brought the rule book onto the field and is showing you the rule which under THEIR interpretation justifies THEIR argument, what are you going to do when you tell them that THEIR interpretation is incorrect according to .

Do you honestly believe the coach who has gone through all the trouble to look up this rule and enter the field in front of everyone to show you who knows what, is just going to say, "Oh, okay" and walk back to the dugout?

As others are confident in their knowledge of the rules to face the coach with the book, I, too, am confident. Confident enough to tell the coach the he has had his say (without a rule book) and we are moving on with the game. If he still protests, I tell him to give me his scorebook so I can sign it, inform the opposing coach the game is being played under protest and then move on.

As an umpire or a tournament UIC, I have never seen both coaches walk away happy from any argument, even when there has been iron-clad evidence (even with a rule book) to prove them wrong. My feeling is that the only times a rule book comes onto the field is if the umpire is unsure themselves and requests a coach's input or a UIC uses one in a conference involving a protest.

But those are just my opinions. We go with what works and it is not the same for everyone.

Mike,
As always, ...good thoughts.

Yet, in the real game, all umpires are not created equal. Some new umpires may really benefit from knowing a proper ruling, and the new guys may even be happy to see a rule they did not know (stepped on the plate, but no contact with the ball).
Too, new coaches are apt to bring a rule book onto the field as they try to understand the game. Either way, new coaches, or new umpires, the advance of knowledge is probably going to improve the game, line by line.

Granted, the use of a rule book on the field is not desireable, or customary, but can be used as a proper tool.


mick

[Steve M]

One thing I've done with some coaches who have tried to bring a book onto the field is to tell them that I know the rule they're about to read and understand it completely AND I'll be more than happy to go over it in detail with them after the game, but I'm not going to allow a rule book to be brought onto this field except by the uic to resolve a protest that has been filed. This will/may work with that coach who is not trying to show me up, but the vast majority of times that a coach brings the book out, they are trying hard to show an ump up - they get told to put that book away.

[mick]

Originally posted by Steve M
One thing I've done with some coaches who have tried to bring a book onto the field is to tell them that I know the rule they're about to read and understand it completely AND I'll be more than happy to go over it in detail with them after the game, but I'm not going to allow a rule book to be brought onto this field except by the uic to resolve a protest that has been filed. This will/may work with that coach who is not trying to show me up, but the vast majority of times that a coach brings the book out, they are trying hard to show an ump up - they get told to put that book away.

Steve M,
I guess my area isn't that volatile. We tend to get along at our lower levels of ball.
And coaches don't try to show U.P. umps very much, cuz they just end up showing their dark side.
It's still a game here.

mick

[Steve M]

Mick,
For the most part it is here, too. But every now & then, there's a jerk that will come out of the woodwork - it's a good idea to be ready for handle them when it happens. The last time I saw a book try to come onto the field was several years ago. I've never had a brawl on the field. The last time that I saw a fight on the field was about 5 years ago. And the last time I saw an ump escalate a problem situation was just last year. Like I said earlier, I think, there's a lot of beer at some adult games and that can make for the possibility of a problem. Kinda like driving a car, anyone can turn the key on, but no all folks think about what will they do IF....

[mick]

Originally posted by Steve M
Mick,
For the most part it is here, too. But every now & then, there's a jerk that will come out of the woodwork - it's a good idea to be ready for handle them when it happens. The last time I saw a book try to come onto the field was several years ago. I've never had a brawl on the field. The last time that I saw a fight on the field was about 5 years ago. And the last time I saw an ump escalate a problem situation was just last year. Like I said earlier, I think, there's a lot of beer at some adult games and that can make for the possibility of a problem. Kinda like driving a car, anyone can turn the key on, but no all folks think about what will they do IF....

Steve M.
If a book happens to come out once every several years, I really doesn't bother me. And, it's got a high probability of reinforcing the call in question.

I bet that ump that aggravated the situation wasn't too confident in his abilities, or he just had horrible timing.

Because neither is available, I don't do "paid manager games" or "beer games". But, I would do "Paid manager games".
mick

[IRISHMAFIA]

Well, slow-pitch is my primary game and I've work game from the bottem, damn near to the top level.

Here, in Delaware (including some teams from SE Pa) the ball players believe they know it all, mostly because they "know" baseball and think it is the same game. They also believe that paying the $$ to play the game, gives them the right to argue just about anything they want.

This statement covers approximately 30-40% of the SP teams around here. BTW, no beer involved until after the games.

Now, the BS cuts back a bit when you start dealing with Championship play, but not completely. One of my more embarrassing moments was at the Men's A Industrials in '96. None of us had any problems with anyone until halfway through the second day. The crew was returning to the umpire's area really pissed. They told us the game they just finished involved a so-so team that did nothing, but whine and cry half the game about every little play.

I had worked with two members of the crew and had watched the other and they were all good umpires. I asked them to point out the crybabies and sure enough, it was the only team from my home state. If there had been a "Whiner's Cup", they would have taken it home, because that is all they did for the 3 (?) games they played. Problem was that they were the ONLY team out of 53 that acted that way.

Because of the player's actions, we lose 2-3 umpires a year. Fifteen years ago, we had 220 active umpires in our association and they all worked. We now have 47 and it is a struggle to cover all the games, but the players still don't get the point that the reason we can't get umpires is in the mirror.

[llblue]

My thoughts on this: (Repeating some, I'm sure)

1. Umpire should never carry a rulebook in his pocket or any place else it can be seen. If you feel you need it as a crutch, stick in your ballbag. Given that it's a week until my first game, I currently know where my books are, they are in some compartment in my equipment bag, that's where they're staying.

2. Manager is welcome to bring a rulebook on the field provided the game is over and I'm already changing out of my gear in front of my moveable lockerroom.

3. In the course of the discussion he's welcome to say "sir, I thought the rule was X, you called Y, how come?

4. If he does manage to sneak a book on the field, I'm asking him to drop it on the ground, when it folds up like it's never been opened, it goes back in his pocket. If by some chance it stays open, we'll talk. In the few times I've done this, I've never had one open.

5. This is another reason you carry a notepad on you. You make the note about the play after the inning is over and look it up yourself later.

6. Only time a rulebook is coming out, a formal protest had better have been filed and allowed.

If you don't know enough about the rules to get you through most all situations, don't go on the field. Learn the basics and then add to it everyday.

Alex

[mick]

Originally posted by llblue


4. If he does manage to sneak a book on the field, I'm asking him to drop it on the ground, when it folds up like it's never been opened, it goes back in his pocket. If by some chance it stays open, we'll talk. In the few times I've done this, I've never had one open.


Alex

Good one, Alex!
So true; so true.
mick