Illegal Glove

[BretMan]

Funny how ASA defines which positions may use either a glove or a mitt, but gives no definition of what constitutes the difference between them.

It must be kind of like pornography.

We might not be able to define them, but we know them when we see them!

I've wondered about these Akadema gloves since I first saw them several years a go. These gloves do have fingers- very short stubby fingers seen on the outside, and full length conventional individual finger stalls on the inside.

Personally, I'd call it a glove. There's no rule book spec on how long the space between the fingers has to be.

But if my state UIC says otherwise, then that's the interpretation I'm going to follow.

By the way, a couple of pieces of odd glove trivia...

The "short finger" glove, looking very much like the Akadema finger arrangement, was first introduced by glove makers in the 1920's. The desigh didn't catch on, and these gloves today are quite rare and collectible.

Several years a go, Wilson marketed a firstbase mitt called "The Outsider". From the front, it looked like a typical first base mitt. The back had individual finger stalls on the outside of the glove.

So much for the "seperate finger slot" definition of what constitutes a glove!

[Edited by BretMan on Jul 21st, 2005 at 03:47 PM]

[bkbjones]

Funny/ironic/strange that the maximum lengths for many parts of the glove are listed on the diagram, but no minimums. Perhaps that will change if this particular glove is not allowed.

Maximums have been around for many, many years. Somewhere I read that the maximums were set up, in part, by Mr. Spalding and his brother in law, Mr. Reach, because they didn't want to have to buy more of the dyes used to cut the leather used for the majority of the glove. A couple standard sizes with different grades of leather...and since they pretty much enjoyed a monopoly back in the olden days, that's what size the gloves were.

(Yes, dammit, I meant dies instead of dyes. Egg on face...)

[Edited by bkbjones on Jul 27th, 2005 at 02:36 PM]

[JEL]

Is there any reasoning why a mitt can not be used by a fielder? Other than mitts may be any size, I can't see why they would not be allowed. I don't see an advantage in a SS using a catchers mitt, (although my daughter would at practice, liked being friends with the mitt, she rarely played infield during a game).

Maybe it's time to just use size restrictions as FED does. But til then, if ASA, per the boss...this ones a mitt.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by bkbjones
Funny/ironic/strange that the maximum lengths for many parts of the glove are listed on the diagram, but no minimums. Perhaps that will change if this particular glove is not allowed.

Maximums have been around for many, many years. Somewhere I read that the maximums were set up, in part, by Mr. Spalding and his brother in law, Mr. Reach, because they didn't want to have to buy more of the dyes used to cut the leather used for the majority of the glove. A couple standard sizes with different grades of leather...and since they pretty much enjoyed a monopoly back in the olden days, that's what size the gloves were.

While I cannot argue with who may have made these decisions (though Mr. Spalding is known to have bent any truth which gets in the way of his opinion), I can tell you it had nothing to do with the dye. A hide is tanned, dyed, staked, stretched and dried as a whole unit (Grew up in a leather factory). It is then sold to the manufacturer of the glove, coat, seat cover, etc. for cutting, trimming and sewing.

I would think the odds are the restrictions to gloves where meant to keep the "peach basket" gloves out of the game.

JEL, the difference with an infielder or outfielder wearing a mitt (first baseman's) is the extra length that would snare a line drive over the infield or a sinking line drive in the outfield.

For as many plays as we see every day, this probably seems like it is nothing. But apparently someone, somewhere believes there is an affect on the game.

[BretMan]

Interesting about you "growing up in a leather factory", Mike, since my biggest hobby- next to playing, coaching and umpiring- is collecting vintage and antique baseball gloves.

From what "bkbjones" wrote, and knowing a little bit about the glovemaking process, I took it that he meant "dies" instead of "dyes".

Re-read his sentence with "die" inserted and it makes perfect sense in relation to a baseball glove's size.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
JEL, the difference with an infielder or outfielder wearing a mitt (first baseman's) is the extra length that would snare a line drive over the infield or a sinking line drive in the outfield.

For as many plays as we see every day, this probably seems like it is nothing. But apparently someone, somewhere believes there is an affect on the game.

Although rule 3-4 is worded oddly, don't mitts have to conform to the same size spec (ASA)?

[JEL]

Originally posted by Dakota

Although rule 3-4 is worded oddly, don't mitts have to conform to the same size spec (ASA)?

Nope,

"The dimensions of any glove used by any fielder other than the pitcher or catcher shall not exceed...."

I read that to mean if a F2, or F3 wishes, their glove, or mitt could be as big as a basketball backstop.

FED's position seems to make good sense.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by BretMan
Interesting about you "growing up in a leather factory", Mike, since my biggest hobby- next to playing, coaching and umpiring- is collecting vintage and antique baseball gloves.

From what "bkbjones" wrote, and knowing a little bit about the glovemaking process, I took it that he meant "dies" instead of "dyes".

Re-read his sentence with "die" inserted and it makes perfect sense in relation to a baseball glove's size.

Yes, it does. Dies = template, pattern cutter, etc.

[GaryBarrentine]

Have been in touch with Joe at Akadema. He has contacted ASA about the issue, and they(ASA) are trying to authenticate the memo posted above. Joe states it is very strange that this would come up now, since the glove in question has been on the market for 6 years.

GaryB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by JEL
Nope,

"The dimensions of any glove used by any fielder other than the pitcher or catcher shall not exceed...."

You didn't quote the whole rule as pertains to mitts...

...The top opening of the web and any mitt worn by a first baseman or catcher, shall not exceed the specifications set forth below.

Odd wording... does this apply only to the web of the mitt, or the whole mitt?

[EdJW]

To U of I Blue. And to other Blues. You don't blindly follow your state UIC when she is making an incorrect and a stupid judgment call in situations where it is clearly a rules call. A rules call that can only be made by ASA nationally, following definitions and procedures analogous to those that make specific balls and bats approved or not approved.

To Irish, come to NSA World Series 12u in SC this week. We will be happy to say hello and show you the glove. Our number one catcher uses it in total defiance of coaches who tell her to use a mitt to catch. Our coaches reasoning. The kid is using a fielders glove to catch.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally posted by EdJW
To U of I Blue. And to other Blues. You don't blindly follow your state UIC when she is making an incorrect and a stupid judgment call in situations where it is clearly a rules call. A rules call that can only be made by ASA nationally, following definitions and procedures analogous to those that make specific balls and bats approved or not approved.

To Irish, come to NSA World Series 12u in SC this week. We will be happy to say hello and show you the glove. Our number one catcher uses it in total defiance of coaches who tell her to use a mitt to catch. Our coaches reasoning. The kid is using a fielders glove to catch.

Ed, two points. First you are obviously missing the point that this memo was originated by the the National Director of Umpires; he is the National ASA when it comes to rules interpretations. He sent the memo to the State UIC's who disseminate the info to the rank and file. The guy at Akadema has it right; he needs to get a glove to Kevin Ryan, who has the authority to make this ruling, and the authority to change it.

Second point; you can pretty much bet that an ASA State UIC won't be visiting an NSA tournament. Perhaps on your drive south you could meet Mike if you really want to show him the glove. If you are driving, you pretty much pass right by him.

[JEL]

Originally posted by Dakota

You didn't quote the whole rule as pertains to mitts...

Odd wording... does this apply only to the web of the mitt, or the whole mitt?

Hmmm, I see your point. Seems it would only be the web though, the other measurements would seem to not apply to a mitt.

FED still makes more sense.

[mcrowder]

EdJW - if ASA posted a list of legal or illegal gloves, I would agree with you. Since they don't, all we have to go with is the measurements, and what ASA tells us to do. Kevin IS "ASA National", so what he says goes.

PS - just curious ... do you own stock in this company or what?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by EdJW


To Irish, come to NSA World Series 12u in SC this week. We will be happy to say hello and show you the glove. Our number one catcher uses it in total defiance of coaches who tell her to use a mitt to catch. Our coaches reasoning. The kid is using a fielders glove to catch.

Thanks, but I have two tournaments of my own to deal with this weekend.

As Steve noted, you are not going to find me at an NSA "World Series". BTW, how many countries are represented at this tournament?