Why 15? why 8? (mercy rule)

[Dakota]

Thoughts on the mercy rules.

Called a state qualifier tournament this past weeked. ASA Championship rules with a modification to the mercy rule: added 10 after 4 to the 15 after 3 and 8 after 5.

I've often wondered about where those particular numbers came from. Where is it in the basics of the game that a team that is 15 behind after less than half the game is in a hopeless situation?

Championship game of a double elimination tournament, loser's bracket winner v winner's bracket winner. Loser's bracket team (which was the team that lost in the final game of the winner's bracket.) wins.

"If" game. I've got the bases. Winner's bracket team is home & scores 10 runs in the bottom of the 1st inning, score 10-0. 2nd inning, visitors score 2. Home scores 3. 13-2. 3rd inning, visitors score 0. Home loads bases with no outs. Winning run at plate. K's. Next batter hits a shallow fly to left. 2 out. Next batter is thrown out at first. So, visitors live one more inning, but now mercy rule is now 10, not 15, and the margin is 11.

Visitors score 2 in the top, and hold home to no runs. Live for one more inning. Margin now 9 (13-4). Visitors score 2 more in the top of the 5th. Home again held to no score. Again, just barely escape the mercy rule (13-6).

6th inning, visitors score 5, home no score. (13-11) 7th inning, visitors score 4 to finally go ahead 15-13 (big hit was a deep fly into RF with bases loaded, scoring 3).

Bottom of the 7th, home has R1 on 2B with two outs, batter hits a sharp grounder to F6 who bobbles it a bit, gains control in time for a bang-bang out at 1B. Game over.

Team that barely kept their head above the mercy rule 3 times wins by 2.

Does kind of make you wonder - how many teams sent home after 3 or 5 could have come back? Where did 15 after 3 come from? Or 8 after 5?

[wadeintothem]

arbitrary probably.. but i love mercy rule,.. i just hate when they linger 1 run under the mercy rule..

[IRISHMAFIA]

I'm sure time is the issue. The ASA CNQ just hosted here had a 21-0 game after 2 1/2 innings. Game was still more than an hour long and that was after the winning team backed off and started going "station-to-station" at the begining of the bottom of the 2nd.

Imagine if that had to go the entire 7 innings?

[whiskers_ump]

I agree with Mike. I think it is a time thing.

AFA utilizes the 8 after 5 as does NCAA. But still the game is usually 1:30 TO 1:45
long. I work a complex in Houston that utilizes the run rule of 8-6-5, beginning in
the third. Now that one I like. Some AFA qualifiers in the area utilize 10-8-6-5
beginning in the 3rd. However, you still gotta love the 1 after 7.

[WestMichBlue]

ASA calls it a "run ahead" rule and mandates it for all national tournaments so maybe it does have something to do with time and keeping on schedule.

However, most people call it a "mercy rule" and it is as it's name implies - have mercy on the poor team getting it's butts whipped. Most youth sports and many high school sports (including basketball and football) have mercy rules to prevent the humiliation of an over-matched team getting drubbed. It also prevents injuries. When you are down by 30 points what prevents you from taking out the opponents star player going in for a layup. After all, what's another free throw?

I like it for competitive reasons. I would rather the players continue to play and run hard to get the to mercy limit and end the game, rather than having a coach hold his runner's back or create cheap outs.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue

I like it for competitive reasons. I would rather the players continue to play and run hard to get the to mercy limit and end the game, rather than having a coach hold his runner's back or create cheap outs.

WMB

I agree, but I have also found that some coaches don't want to take that character hit and want the umpires to be the bad guy.

I have had coaches request time to tell me their runners were going to jump early so I could call them out. I suggested that the 3B coach just catch their runner rounding 3rd for the out. The coach looked at me like I was crazy and said, "I can't do that, I'm the coach!"

So, the umpire needs to *******ize the game, but the coach cannot?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
However, most people call it a "mercy rule" and it is as it's name implies - have mercy on the poor team getting it's butts whipped. Most youth sports and many high school sports (including basketball and football) have mercy rules to prevent the humiliation of an over-matched team getting drubbed.

Don't misunderstand... the mercy rule (by whatever name) is a good rule, and with time limit games, even more so. In that vein, there should be a 20 after 2 rule for time limit games.

I was just wondering about the numbers chosen. It seems that 15 after 3 is pretty fair; that is a steep hill to climb even with 4 full innings remaining. But 8 after 5 seems like too close a score to call for "mercy." That is just a net gain of 4 runs for each of the remaining at-bats. Certainly not out of reach at the younger levels. I wouldn't think it would be out of reach for the offensive-minded slow pitch game, either.

In the game I described in the beginning, 8 after 5 would have been a losing score in the end, not a "have mercy" situation.

But, as I said, just wondering.

[bkbjones]

Here's one that is one of my all-timers (and even better, true story!):

Team A is behind 13-0 going into top of 3.
Team A scores two runs, making it 13-2.
Team A coach goes up to PU after top of third.
"OK, blue, we got your 15 after 3, we're done."

PU: "Ok, that's ball game." Goes out to circle to pick up ball, tells is BU to shut up and they trot off the field.

[coachsara]

How is this one...

10 after 2.

That was in a fast pitch state tournament.

Tell me that 10 runs after 2 innings constitutes a ballgame being over.

I caught so much grief about this but afterall...I was just the umpire not the tournament director.

[SRW]

Originally posted by bkbjones
Here's one that is one of my all-timers (and even better, true story!):

Team A is behind 13-0 going into top of 3.
Team A scores two runs, making it 13-2.
Team A coach goes up to PU after top of third.
"OK, blue, we got your 15 after 3, we're done."

PU: "Ok, that's ball game." Goes out to circle to pick up ball, tells is BU to shut up and they trot off the field.

bkbjones: Lemme guess - you're the PU here... ?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by bkbjones
Here's one that is one of my all-timers (and even better, true story!):

Team A is behind 13-0 going into top of 3.
Team A scores two runs, making it 13-2.
Team A coach goes up to PU after top of third.
"OK, blue, we got your 15 after 3, we're done."

PU: "Ok, that's ball game." Goes out to circle to pick up ball, tells is BU to shut up and they trot off the field.

Well, with that math, then 8-7 after 3 is also GAME!

[tcannizzo]

Someone told me last year that there was a high school rule that said 25 after 1 would be a game. Never heard of it before.

[CecilOne]

My granddaughter's team was leading 14-2 going into the 4th in a 10 after 4, 8 after 5, but their pitcher lost it and walked in eight runs in the 4th. Final score, 23-11 in full 6 innings.

[NDblue]

I wish we would have had that 15 run rule in the McQuade's Charity SP softball tournament. 75 min time limit. I'm umping a game that after 3 innings, the winning team was ahead by 30 runs. This was 97 minutes into the game. They're required to play a minimum of 4 innings no matter the time limit. Losing team is home so they get last bat. Top of 4th inning, I started to make up outs to get the game over with. Neither coach said a thing and just nodded. Final score was 38 - 0. I couldn't help pitches that were landing if front of the plate or dang near hitting me in the chest because they were too deep. Anything that looked remotely close was called a strike.

[SRW]

Originally posted by NDblue
Top of 4th inning, I started to make up outs to get the game over with.

Anything that looked remotely close was called a strike.

Sounds like you got lazy. An umpire should NEVER compromize the strike zone, or "make up outs" just because the teams are mis-matched.