Dropped third strike interference?

[John Robertson]

This play actually happened in a game I umpired in 1983. It recently came up in a discussion, and I was asked to make this posting to see if other umpires agree with my ruling. Here's what happened:

Two strikes on the batter. The next pitch bounces in front of the plate. The batter swings and misses for strike three. The pitch eludes the catcher and hits the backstop. (At this diamond the backstop is only about 10 feet behind home plate.) The ball ricochets hard off the backstop and rolls along the first base line. Both the catcher and first baseman see the ball and move in to field it. The batter-runner has no idea where the ball is, but he starts to run to first base. The ball ends up between the batter runner's feet--who accidentally kicks the ball into the bench area along first base!

After due consideration I called the batter-runner out for interference because, even though it was totally unintentional, he took a play away from the defensive team.

Would anyone out there make a different call?

[whiskers_ump]

NO. ASA Rule 8 Sec 2 F.

[tcannizzo]

I've got incidental contact. Since the ball was not batted, intent comes into play. The ball obviously found the batter from behind, and the kick was accidental (your words). If the ball went into DBT, I would award 2B.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
NO. ASA Rule 8 Sec 2 F.

I will submit a rule change this year to correct that situation.

[John Robertson]

Thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming!

One thing though: If I didn't call interference, the batter would only get first base--not second base-- because it was a pitch that was accidentally kicked out of play.

One other thing: The game took place in Canada so Softball Canada rules would apply.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by tcannizzo
I've got incidental contact. Since the ball was not batted, intent comes into play. The ball obviously found the batter from behind, and the kick was accidental (your words). If the ball went into DBT, I would award 2B.

True, the ball was not batted, but what it was was a dropped third strike. Glen cited the rule. Intent is not a factor. Speaking ASA, correct call. Seems wrong, but according to the rules, correct.

Mike, what correction will you be submitting? Adding intent?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

True, the ball was not batted, but what it was was a dropped third strike. Glen cited the rule. Intent is not a factor. Speaking ASA, correct call. Seems wrong, but according to the rules, correct.

Mike, what correction will you be submitting? Adding intent?

That's what I'll try to get done. Cannot expect the player legally advancing to avoid something they most likely never saw coming.

[reccer]

I dredged up this old thread for guidance on a play this past weekend.

Dropped 3rd strike, ball rolls between right hand batters feet while still in box. While the catcher is reaching for the ball, batter unintentionally kicks the ball. Ball did not travel far and the catcher was able to retrieve the ball and throw out the batter. I asked the young PU (who was being trained by the old BU) to visit with me about that play in between innings.

I asked the PU would he have called interference if the batter had accidently kicked the ball in such a way that the catcher who was reaching for the ball could not have made a play? PU did not even see the kick but BU explained that since the kick was unintentional, he's got no interference.

I then asked well what about a D3K that traveled a few feet up the first baseline and is in fair territory and is again unintentionally kicked by the batter while the catcher was going to make a play. Again, old BU says play on

Reviewing my 2008 ASA Rule book, I don't know if Mike got the change he was going to request. Here is the wording of Rule 8, Sec 2, F.6.

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Batter runner is out when the batter-runner interfers with (fast pitch) a dropped third strike.

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It appears this is an out even though the defense screwed this up. (On the other hand, the offense did just strike out.)

Is the old BU right?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by reccer

I dredged up this old thread for guidance on a play this past weekend.

Dropped 3rd strike, ball rolls between right hand batters feet while still in box. While the catcher is reaching for the ball, batter unintentionally kicks the ball. Ball did not travel far and the catcher was able to retrieve the ball and throw out the batter. I asked the young PU (who was being trained by the old BU) to visit with me about that play in between innings.

I asked the PU would he have called interference if the batter had accidently kicked the ball in such a way that the catcher who was reaching for the ball could not have made a play? PU did not even see the kick but BU explained that since the kick was unintentional, he's got no interference.

I then asked well what about a D3K that traveled a few feet up the first baseline and is in fair territory and is again unintentionally kicked by the batter while the catcher was going to make a play. Again, old BU says play on

Reviewing my 2008 ASA Rule book, I don't know if Mike got the change he was going to request. Here is the wording of Rule 8, Sec 2, F.6.

----------------------

Batter runner is out when the batter-runner interfers with (fast pitch) a dropped third strike.

------------------

It appears this is an out even though the defense screwed this up. (On the other hand, the offense did just strike out.)

Is the old BU right?

The rule says "Batter runner is out when the batter-runner interfers with (fast pitch) a dropped third strike. ", nothing about intent so has to be an out. The concept of not being a batted ball does not apply if the rule specifies an U3K, which cannot be batted.

What difference do you see between this and a batted ball which the BR does not see?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The rule says "Batter runner is out when the batter-runner interfers with (fast pitch) a dropped third strike. ", nothing about intent so has to be an out. The concept of not being a batted ball does not apply if the rule specifies an U3K, which cannot be batted.

What difference do you see between this and a batted ball which the BR does not see?

Well, for one thing, on a batted ball the defense did not just drop the ball...

But, whatever, I'm having a hard time visualizing a batted ball that the BR cannot see before kicking it.

[reccer]

But, whatever, I'm having a hard time visualizing a batted ball that the BR cannot see before kicking it.

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Unpadded brick backstop at new fields in Seguin Tx. The ricochets were unreal

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by reccer

But, whatever, I'm having a hard time visualizing a batted ball that the BR cannot see before kicking it.

--------------------------------------------

Unpadded brick backstop at new fields in Seguin Tx. The ricochets were unreal

That would be a foul ball, wouldn't it?

[reccer]

Not a foul ball, a rise ball that is swung at and missed and ricochets off of brick backstop hitting the batter-runner as they are running to first

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by reccer

But, whatever, I'm having a hard time visualizing a batted ball that the BR cannot see before kicking it.

Possibly a drag bunt.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by reccer

Not a foul ball, a rise ball that is swung at and missed and ricochets off of brick backstop hitting the batter-runner as they are running to first

But, that's not a batted ball....