Your Call

[whiskers_ump]

This occurred in an AFA Championship game Sunday. (ASA rules should be same.) 18U

Bases juiced, 1 out, 2 & 2 count on the batter. She swings, ball hits dirt, catcher
delays, umpires states "strike 3", then catcher throws the ball towards 1B. Ball ends up in
RF, with runner from 3rd scoring. Runner from 2B comes in also. Misses the plate, umpire
signals nothing, runner that had just scored from 3B, picks runner that was on 2B up,
and moves her to HP. Runner is called safe by PU, time is then called.

At this point, what would your call have been. (Yes, there is more to the story,
however, would like to hear reactions to the above events first.

[mcrowder]

2 outs, 2 runs in, runner from 1st is somewhere (I'm assuming 3rd). Batter is in the dugout. Next batter please.

[U_of_I_Blue]

MC-

I agreed with you until I reread the stitch for a third time. The runner from 3rd scores. When the runner from 2nd misses the plate, the previous runner (the one that just scored) picked her up and moved her to the plate. That would be physically assisting a runner would it not? I know it's illegal for a coach to do so, I'm assuming it is for a fellow player to physically assist as well. If she would have told the other runner to go back and touch the plate all is well, but she physically assisted the runner in going back and touching the plate.

My line on the play:
-Batter out, D3K with first occupied less than 2 gone.
That makes 2 outs.
-Runner from 3rd scores
-Runner from 2nd is out for receiving physical assistance from a teammate for the third out, end of inning.

-Josh

[DaveASA/FED]

Would the run score?? If I read it right R1 on third scored no issue, R2 from second was assisted back to the plate so she is out, so my question now is does R2's run score? R1 woudl be on 3rd and BR on 2nd(?). I get R2 out, but does her run get taken off the board?

[mcrowder]

Dave --- how did BR get to second. Put her back in the dugout.

Both of you - re-read (and perhaps post if handy) the physical assist rule. Look, in particular, for who is not allowed to do this.

This all comes down to an argument I believe we've had earlier. Is R3 still a runner after she scored? Consensus here (and in my clinic) was that she's still a runner until AFTER R2 scores legally, and in this sitch, would still be a runner when she assisted R2.

(PS - one other thing - if R2 was out at home for some other reason ... wouldn't you still score R1? Of course you would. So even if I'm on drugs and R2 is in fact out, R1 scored, and R2 is not a force out.)

[Dakota]

BR is out: less than 2 outs with 1B occupied.

R2 scores, since physical assist by a runner is legal (8-7-E), and R1 is still legally a runner (Rule 1 - RUNNER).

Then, let the protest committee sort out if R1 is legally still a runner.

Why was TIME called?

[mcrowder]

I'm suspecting time was called after action stopped after a request from a coach so he could come argue about the legal physical assist.

[U_of_I_Blue]

If R3 is considered a runner until R2 scores, then you're exactly right on your first post MC.

-Josh

[bkbjones]

But...
Once R2 reaches and passes the plate, even though she missed it, would R3 still be a runner? I say this because it would be an appeal play if, for instance, she simply went on toward the dugout. At first blush (and without rule book in hand) R3 could no longer legally assist R2.

[mcrowder]

It's a nice 5-page thread of it's own, isn't it?

I believe the last time this was discussed here, R3's status as "runner" remained just that until R2 legally scored (and, according to some, remained "Runner" until after the play has ended).

Consider the definition of runner - it does not exclude R3 in this sitch. Consider the physical assist rule - doesn't specify whether said runner could have already scored. (Other rules (like interference) where it wants this runner treated differently DO specify a difference between a runner who has already scored and one who has not).

Try the converse. Try to show, via the rulebook, that R3 is NOT allowed to physically assist R2. I believe you would lose that in a protest (a long, drawn out one, admittedly).

So - I'm curious to learn what happened in the real-life sitch. Who got themselves ejected over this one?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Try to show, via the rulebook, that R3 is NOT allowed to physically assist R2.

You can't, except possibly by broad inference. The definition of a runner is

an offensive player

check

who has reached first base

check

and has not yet been put out.

check.

The inference case can be made from Rule 8-7-P, where the retired runner is lumped together with a runner who has scored.

But, as I said, I'll let the protest committee make that inference. On the field, I'd allow the R3 assist of R2.

[Dakota]

But, for AFA, Glen, you may actually have a different ruling, since the AFA rule book does not contain a definition of a runner (at least my 2004 book doesn't).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
BR is out: less than 2 outs with 1B occupied.

R2 scores, since physical assist by a runner is legal (8-7-E), and R1 is still legally a runner (Rule 1 - RUNNER).

Then, let the protest committee sort out if R1 is legally still a runner.

Why was TIME called?

Reread the exception to ASA's 8.7.E. It just says assisted, didn't exempt anyone from the call.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Reread the exception to ASA's 8.7.E. It just says assisted, didn't exempt anyone from the call.

The exception is for the live ball / dead ball difference.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

The exception is for the live ball / dead ball difference.

It also does not mention any players specific to the rule, either, does it?

This was a rule change in 2003 to clarify the runner assistance rule.