situation at first

outathm · #1 (**permalink**) Wed May 25, 2005, 10:41am

This is a situation an umpire called me with from this past weekend.

I have looked in the rulebooks I have and can find justification for both safe and out, justifications follow.

I would like to hear what you all think in here.

PLAY:
BR hit ot F6 who bobbles the ball. BR runs past 1B but does not touch the bag. Defense throws to F3 who is touching 1b.

Here are the Justifications:

FED: 8-6-7 OUT Pg 65
8-3-4 OUT Pg 61

PONY: 9-8c OUT Pg 62
9-8g OUT Pg 63

NCAA: 12-8a OUT Pg 155

ASA: 8-3b SAFE Pg 106
8-7g OUT Pg 112

JEL · #2 (**permalink**) Wed May 25, 2005, 11:14am

I didn't re-read all of the cites you gave, but the only way to justify an out is to have had a live ball appeal. The mere act of throwing to 1B IMO doesn't show an appeal. There needs to be a tag attempt, or a fielder saying "she missed the bag". They must convince me they are appealling.

The runner is safe after passing the base unless properly appealed.

UmpireErnie · #3 (**permalink**) Wed May 25, 2005, 11:18am

Is the throw to F3 clearly a live ball appeal for BR missing 1B or simply the normal play to try to retire the BR prior to her reaching 1B? If it is not obvious that the defense is making a live ball appeal for the missed base, I am calling "SAFE" and waiting for an appeal.

If the defense was aware of the missed base they are going to start squealing immedeatly the safe call is made; "But BLUE!! She missed the base!!" Now suddlenly that throw to F3 is a live ball appeal and the BR is out.

AtlUmpSteve · #4 (**permalink**) Wed May 25, 2005, 11:19am

Well, you have NCAA wrong, per 12-8a and 12-19.2. 12-8-a says Runner is out AFTER A PROPER APPEAL. Absent proper appeal, she must be safe, per 12-19.2.

In FED, 8-3-4 combined with 8-8-8 is why she is safe.

outathm · #5 (**permalink**) Wed May 25, 2005, 01:56pm

I guess I should mention that everyone on the defensive side was yelling that she missed first, that's what caused the throw to go to 1B. This was not my play just relaying an interesting situation and getting the info in bits and pieces.

JEL · #6 (**permalink**) Wed May 25, 2005, 02:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by outathm
I guess I should mention that everyone on the defensive side was yelling that she missed first, that's what caused the throw to go to 1B. This was not my play just relaying an interesting situation and getting the info in bits and pieces.

Sounds like an appeal to me. BR out on appeal, continue on.

kono · #7 (**permalink**) Wed May 25, 2005, 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JEL

Sounds like an appeal to me. BR out on appeal, continue on.

As long as F3 received the ball before BR returned to the base.

AtlUmpSteve · #8 (**permalink**) Wed May 25, 2005, 02:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by outathm
I guess I should mention that everyone on the defensive side was yelling that she missed first, that's what caused the throw to go to 1B. This was not my play just relaying an interesting situation and getting the info in bits and pieces.

Yeah, I guess you should. That totally changes the play you posted. First post, runner beat the throw and is safe, despite missing the bag.

Now, new play, you have a live ball appeal of a missed base before the runner returned; runner is out (and, BTW, no run can score if this is the 3rd out).

IRISHMAFIA · #9 (**permalink**) Wed May 25, 2005, 04:49pm

Quote:

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve

Quote:

Originally posted by outathm
I guess I should mention that everyone on the defensive side was yelling that she missed first, that's what caused the throw to go to 1B. This was not my play just relaying an interesting situation and getting the info in bits and pieces.

Yeah, I guess you should. That totally changes the play you posted. First post, runner beat the throw and is safe, despite missing the bag.

Now, new play, you have a live ball appeal of a missed base before the runner returned; runner is out (and, BTW, no run can score if this is the 3rd out).

On the defensive side of what? If it wasn't the fielder with the ball, it still may not be a proper appeal. Of course, it isn't going to take much from F3 for me to acknowledge an appeal

I would still have to see the play by the defense. I would have to feel they threw the ball to F3 for the appeal and not as the routine late play on the BR.

mcrowder · #10 (**permalink**) Thu May 26, 2005, 09:42am

I'd probably take this as a proper appeal if the person throwing the ball said it while (or slightly before or after) throwing the ball to first... especially if the throw was initiated AFTER BR passed the base.

outathm · #11 (**permalink**) Thu May 26, 2005, 11:03am

I HTBT too. I was told this by a guy who works for me and his story telling leaves a lot to be desired. I think the ball was not thrown as a routine playbut as an appeal like the posters in here are suggesting. I wasn't there though so I can't say for sure. I had the same thing, safe unless the throw was as an appeal.