Verbal INT??

[Dakota]

Originally posted by officialtony
As far as authority outside the fence - I will take issue with that statement.
If a fan repeatedly attempts to distract or irritate members of either team, I can and will have them removed from the park or cease play until they do.
I claim that authority under 10-1-6 . . .
" The umpire's right to disqualify players or to remove nonplayers for objecting to decisions or for unsporting conduct is absolute. "
I think that is quite clear.

Here, our local rules give the umpire authority to eject fans (i.e. order them to leave the area) for certain behavior, but speaking official ASA, the umpire has no such authority.

The rule you quoted is, I believe, a Fed rule and you are (in my view) reading waaaayyy too much into "nonplayer" that what Fed intends. They merely mean a member of the team, coaching staff, or bench personnel not limited to just the players.

Compare to 10-1-1 where it names them,

Any umpire has the authority to order a player, coach or bench personnel to do or refrain from doing anything which affects the administering of these rules...

And, think about it. Many ASA games are played in public parks. Fed games are generally played on public property (school property). What authority does an umpire have over the general public merely because a game is in progress?

If things are getting out of control, the game should be suspended and law enforcement or other administrative authorities (e.g. school AD, tournament director, etc.) should be summoned.

[Edited by Dakota on May 24th, 2005 at 11:01 AM]

[JEL]

OK, Here's more on this particular game. I didn't report it in the original post cause it has no bearing on the play in question. (Am I hijacking my own thread here?, oh well let's do it).

Later in this particular game the fans did start getting out of hand with insults to each other as well as to the players and I'm sure umpires. The TD stepped in, not sure if he was called to the field or if so by whom, but he talked with both head coaches and told them to get their respective fans under control or he would declare a double forfiet. I suppose he could do that, but I would rather have seen the threat of clearing all fans and finishing the game!

Just glad I wasn't a part of that game. I did call games for both of these teams, and the fans from one of them were very vocal. Glad none of this escalated into violence, it well could have.

[IRISHMAFIA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by officialtony


Mike,
Were you responding to my post?
If so, the intent of my post was to suggest some remedies to the initial thread posted. Not having been there, I would not venture a guess as to what I would have done. What I would NOT do is get into a discussion with a fan. I might let the coaches know that if a fan repeatedly attempts to alter the course of play by those tactics, the teams will suffer the consequences by my decisions. I do have the authority to administer penalties upon teams that Obstruct or Interfere. And I can make that case on any calls that I deem came from the dugouts on either side - or their team members.

The post was general in nature citing the ASA's rules under which the scenario offered occured. The conversation has become so diluted, it would be fruitless to try to address a particular post.

__________________________________________________ _____
As far as authority outside the fence - I will take issue with that statement.
If a fan repeatedly attempts to distract or irritate members of either team, I can and will have them removed from the park or cease play until they do.
I claim that authority under 10-1-6 . . .
" The umpire's right to disqualify players or to remove nonplayers for objecting to decisions or for unsporting conduct is absolute. "
I think that is quite clear.

Yeah, if you weren't playing the game under ASA rules. It is quite clear that there is no such rule in ASA.

What happens outside the fence involving the fans is not my concern. That would be an issue for a site coordinator, TD, AD or law enforcement.

As Tom noted, many a field is on public property. There have been lawsuits lost over this issue, so why would I waste my time. I have enough to handle on the field. If the idiots want to act like a$$holes in the stands, let them. If it begins to jeopardize the safety of either team member or umpire crew, I call the police, meet them when they enter and offer to sign any complaint necessary. BUT, that is the act of a citizen, not the umpire.

[coachfanmom]

Before we ever leave headed for a tournament, we have a parent/coach/team meeting and I express HIGHLY the attitudes that I expect out of each person, including players, coaches AND parents. If I hear of any of our parents behaving in any questionable manner, I myself put a stop to it before anyone else gets the opportunity. I have been known not to even allow a player on my team because of how their PARENTS behave at tournaments. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. It is sad for the girls because some of them have a real chance at a great future if it weren't for the sour attitudes that some have. But we have a much better time with less qualified players with good attitudes than with disgruntled players and parents.

[SRW]

I've handled unruley fans/parents like this:

Inbetween batters, innings, whenever you have a dead ball opportunity:

Hey coach, can I talk to you for a second? There's some fans sitting on your side that are getting a little out of hand. I don't want to have to stop the game to deal with them, so can you handle that for me and get them to behave? If you can't, I'll resolve it... but I don't think you want me to do that. Thanks.

9 times out of 10 the coach is MORE than happy to handle it himself/herself, and not have me intervene. The last time I had to use this, the coach told me an inning later that he handled it, and the fan left the stands. I thanked him, and no one else was the wiser.

[officialtony]

Folks,
You are correct. I was quoting FED rules. I apologize.
Those are the games I do.
Please forgive my intrusion into the post.
I do believe the umpire has a right to control fans by the natue of our rules - whether ASA or Fed. I only hope I apply them correctly.
In ASA, what is the recourse for an umpire for unruly fans throwing things at players or engaging in verbal bantering back and forth to incite players?

Again my apologies.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by officialtony

In ASA, what is the recourse for an umpire for unruly fans throwing things at players or engaging in verbal bantering back and forth to incite players?

Don't care about verbal bantering, the coach should control his/her players.

However, throwing something onto the field now brings the problem between the fences. Now the problem is within my realm as the umpire.

I would stop the game and call the coaches together. If one is available, I will have someone go for a TD, AD, site coordinator and inform him/her that the game is suspended until the situation is under control. If on site, I will notify the UIC of my actions. If necessary, I will call the police. I always have a cell phone in my equipment bag which is always within a short dash. Okay, so I don't dash anymore, but you get the point.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by officialtony
Folks,
You are correct. I was quoting FED rules. I apologize.
Those are the games I do.
Please forgive my intrusion into the post.
I do believe the umpire has a right to control fans by the natue of our rules - whether ASA or Fed. I only hope I apply them correctly.
In ASA, what is the recourse for an umpire for unruly fans throwing things at players or engaging in verbal bantering back and forth to incite players?

Again my apologies.

No need to apologize. You weren't intruding; you were participating. Please continue. If I sounded annoyed in any way by your citng the Fed rule, then I apologize. I was just clarifying.

Many of us call for Fed, along with other organizations. Most of the softball sanctioning bodies are represented on this board by umpires. Even (ugh) USFA. - That was for you, Glen!

[officialtony]

Dakota,
Thanks.
I did not take offense.
I just realized I was outside my domain.

I will try to acquire ASA training.
It will add to my resume.


Thanks to all.

[whiskers_ump]

Many of us call for Fed, along with other organizations. Most of the softball sanctioning bodies are represented on this board by umpires. Even (ugh) USFA. - That was for you, Glen! [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for the plug, Tom.

[coachfanmom]

Ok....Just so you ALL know....I was soooooooo thinking about you and this thread last night at our game!!! It was so funny I just had to roll laughing!

Of course I was already having a GREAT night because after months and months of hard work and determination, I finally got my girls (league ball....not travel) fired up for a game. They finally acted like they were there to play ball and that they did!! Final score 15-4. 43 out of 65 pitches were STRIKES!!!! woohoooo!!! I was not only a proud Coach but a proud fan and MOM too!!!

Ok....anyways....back to the SITCH that had me thinking about ya'll. Opposing team had a grandfather outside the fence watching the game. When they started getting beat pretty badly, the yelling started. I mean this man had a voice like none I have ever heard before. It was like thunder. The kids up on the T-ball field could hear him, he was so loud. At first he was just yelling at their team to get the ball. This and that. It was annoying and distracting because it was coming from the outside of the fence and a lot of the opposing team was getting confused as to where the plays were to be made at and they couldn't hear their coach over this man. All you heard was HIS voice in the entire park. But then he started in telling them how sorry they were and putting them down. I mean YELLING at the top of his lungs. Now I'm a loud woman....that's just the coach in me, but he by far surpassed me. It was almost comical at first but then once he started putting the girls down and the confusion started, I felt there were safety issues. I mean it scared the girls to hear him yell and when a ball was hit to them and he started yelling to get it they would freak out! Finally opposing coach had enough, called time and EVERYONE knew what it was about....she went to the fence, and the man KNEW what was about to happen so without a word having to be said, he walked away from the fence. Then all the girls on BOTH teams, all coaches, all fans and even the Umpires all started clapping! So we all laughed it off and after a few minutes, he came back, sat down and watch the rest of the game without saying a word.

[UmpireErnie]

Sunny,

Thanks for your story! We have been going round and round on this thread about when we should or should not (and what we CAN or CANNOT do by rule). But your story points out that ideally, we should not have to deal with fans.

Of course we don't always have an ideal situation, do we? I agree with most on here who have said that most of the time we should just ignore anything going on outside the fence. If someone is getting disruptive to the point where I just can't ignore it, then I am going to the coach (both of them if need be) or a league/tournament director (we never have ADs at our high school games unfortunatly) and ask them to get it under control.

We can argue all day over whether or not I have rule book authority to toss a fan; but I do have authority to stop the game until someone takes care of the problem. Or, as Mike points out if the situation were to warrent I will call the police (I am pretty sure that outside the fence IS their jurisdiction) and make a complaint when they arrive. I have never had it go that far yet, but that is my standing game plan.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by UmpireErnie

but I do have authority to stop the game until someone takes care of the problem.

There you go.