BU position with runners on 1 & 2

[coachfanmom]

Last nights Sitch (Imma trying to learn this lingo...lol)16U girls ASA Fastpitch game

Runners on 1 and 2......BU was standing between 2base and 3base in FRONT of the base line......couldn't see when 2base runner was leaving early..... Opposing coach goes out on field and conferences with BU about where she stands but she argues back and doesn't move her position therefore never calling the runner out for leaving early.... Opposing coach of course is furious and pitches him a fit.... Im just a spectator to this game....but had to agree with the opposing side on this one.... Ump should stand where she could see the play!

[aevans410]

Standing in "C" position on the inside of the diamond is a baseball (90 foot basepaths) mechanic. The BU should have indeed been outside of the diamond. (I'm pretty sure anyway, I'm by no means an expert on 2 man mechanics for SB, I do most SB games solo)

[bkbjones]

coachfanmom,
The proper position for the BU with runners on 1&2 is 2-3 steps behind and 2-3 steps to the left of SS. (this is when you have 2 umpires, a plate umpire and a base umpire. when we have the luxury of 3 umpires, it's different...)

We usually don't have base umpires on the inside of the diamond when the ball is on the inside of the diamond.

[mcrowder]

I agree with the normal mechanic of being in C in this sitch.

But you do come across umpires that want to work inside here. Most are probably former baseball umpires, or may be umpires that learned from baseball umpires. But they do exist. The key here as PU is that YOU need to watch for the runner on 2nd leaving early. It's not really that hard - she's right in your line of sight - and it doesn't take away from your concentration on the pitch.

OTOH - coaches should not be talking to umpires about their positioning. Had this exact sitch in the 14U tourney last weekend. Coach came to complain to ME (not BU) that BU was inside with runners on 1st and 2nd or 2nd and 3rd. Told him positioning was not something he need worry about. He then asked me how he could see the runner on 2nd. I told him that he can't. But I can.

[msrock1954]

While we're on the subject of bases left too early, or tag up's on a caught fly ball, and who's watching what consider the following scenario:

Bases juiced: Normally in this sitch as BU I would be playing myself 2-3 steps behind and off the right hand side of F6. This almost puts the R3, pitcher, and R1 in a straight diagonal line and it's pretty easy for me to see if R1 or R3 left too early or failed to tag up and I can also watch the pitcher. Is the PU supposed to be keeping an eye on R2 in this situation as the R2 is right in his line of sight? Kind of hard to watch for an illegal pitch and watch all 3 runners at the same time.

[CecilOne]

Mechanics have been developed to ensure the best coverage, so the defined way is what we should be doing.
However, the C position is behind the baseline, but not necessarily behind or to the left of F6.
We frequently talk about C1, C2, C3 depending on the players positions, number of outs, game situations, etc.
If F6 is playing deep enough, "C" might be even with that position instead of behind, especially when the play is likely to be at 1st.

[coachfanmom]

I think I left out a small detail.... The coach complained to the PU about not calling the runner on 2nd out for leaving early and PU told him that she can't see the play it is up to the BU to call it.... he went back to dugout then on next time (very next pitch) runner left early again and AGAIN BU didn't call it because she was on the inside of the baseline....that's when he complained to the BU about her positioning...... if the coach isn't to complain to the umps about a bad call that evidently EVERYONE else in the ballpark could see except for the two umpires then how's it gonna get fixed.... I mean I was for the other team but I had to agree with the coach on that one because you put me in that same sitch and Imma blow up too..... these are 2 rookie 19 yo umps that need guidance from some vets (both coaches are asa cert umps) but won't take advice because THEY are the umps.... just think they should be more open minded on takin advice from others in that sitch.... (now imma sit back and wait to get creamed on this one....go on blues...let me have it...lol)

[mcrowder]

Perhaps these guys do need some advice from more experienced umps ... BUT NOT DURING THE GAME.

These two should have discussed positioning in their pregame. I suspect these two didn't have a pregame.

Also - beware defining an umpire's position based on a particular fielder (SS in the example above). Fielders move all over. SS could be 4 steps from third base (or from 2nd!). Move so that you can see as much of the relevant things you need to see as possible.

Also - msrock says, "Kind of hard to watch for an illegal pitch and watch all 3 runners at the same time." --- PU is only responsible for IP's related to the pitcher's hands - so that responsibility ends rather quickly; and it's not hard to see a runner on 2nd leaving early in peripheral vision when looking right at the release point of a pitch.

I would never have PU responsible for any early leaving of runners on 1st or 3rd.

[coachfanmom]

Perhaps these guys do need some advice from more experienced umps ... BUT NOT DURING THE GAME.

ok ok ok.....point taken BUT its so hard to sit there and watch a call not being made on a sitch that is just so obvious to EVERYONE around you (on both teams).

[Dakota]

In general, complaints about umpire mechanics, hustle, etc. should not be raised during a game. They should be raised with the UIC or the umpire's chapter/association. IOW, with someone who can do something about it.

Remember, umpire mechanics are not in the rule book. Poor mechanics is not the basis for any kind of protest.

[msrock1954]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mcrowder
Perhaps these guys do need some advice from more experienced umps ... BUT NOT DURING THE GAME.

These two should have discussed positioning in their pregame. I suspect these two didn't have a pregame.

Also - beware defining an umpire's position based on a particular fielder (SS in the example above). Fielders move all over. SS could be 4 steps from third base (or from 2nd!). Move so that you can see as much of the relevant things you need to see as possible.

Also - msrock says, "Kind of hard to watch for an illegal pitch and watch all 3 runners at the same time." --- PU is only responsible for IP's related to the pitcher's hands - so that responsibility ends rather quickly; and it's not hard to see a runner on 2nd leaving early in peripheral vision when looking right at the release point of a pitch.

I would never have PU responsible for any early leaving of runners on 1st or 3rd. [/QUOTE I totally agree that PU should not be repsonsible for R1 or R3, but he's looking right at R2 with bases juiced and probably has best view as to whether R2 leaves early. It's nice to hear how other's view this.

[coachfanmom]

That's our whole problem....didn't have a UIC there last night (probably wouldn't have mattered if he was there since he has no clue about softball but I'll give him an "a" for trying).....our league isn't very well organized....Mom and I got burned out as a President (her) and board member (me) of our Softball league a few years ago and dropped out of the scene (until now) when we couldn't get any help from parents or the city..... This town is all about boys sports and the girls take a back seat to baseball.....They have 4 fields and we only have one....but that's a whole different story now isn't it!!! Sorry.....lol SHUP me!!

This forum is helping me to see Blue's points of views on things and maybe I will have a better attitude next week when we play again. Thanks you guys!!

[bkbjones]

If my comments earlier were taken to mean the BU should ALWAYS be there, then ... well, obviously, they shouldn't. mcrowder and others make some good points about how that does change depending on position of the fielders, etc.

However, slightly hijacking the thread:

The whole point of positioning is that the BU should never have to "look through" a player to be able to make a call. And starting on the inside of the baseline on a 60-foot diamond IMHO should NEVER happen.

And as for the PU not being able to see runner on 2B leaving early...that, as the Irish would say, is pretty much pure blarney in my book.