Obstruction Situation ?

[Rattlehead]

12U : Nobody on Nobody Out. No Double base at First.

Batter hit a shot into the gap on left center field.

F3 is standing on 1B Prior to BR reaching 1B causing BR to miss 1B. BU and PU Both Signal Obstruction.

BR Takes a wide turn around 1st and is safe (Played on late tag) at 2nd.

Time is called and Defensive Coach appeals the runner missing 1B.

What would be your call?

[mcrowder]

This is why I always announce OBS and the award even when the runner safely achieves the base I was going to award her. After the award, the baserunner CAN go back, touch first, and come back to 2nd. A savvy coach will have her do just that.

If I announce OBS, and the award, and the runner does not retouch - she's out on appeal.

[bkbjones]

Here I am at work without my ASA book at hand (again). But...when the ball is dead, doesn't the BR have to be given the opportunity to complete her baserunning obligations before an appeal may be made?

[mcrowder]

Yes - you can't allow the appeal until it's obvious that the runner is finished.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Rattlehead
Time is called and Defensive Coach appeals the runner missing 1B.

What would be your call?

Speaking ASA, nothing (yet.) The coach may not make this appeal.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Yes - you can't allow the appeal until it's obvious that the runner is finished.

True, but if the runner has stopped on a base (and with OBS it is delayed dead, and not dead unless you actually NEED to award bases), once the defense requests and is granted TIME, by definition, the runner has completed her baserunning (otherwise, you would not have granted TIME, right?)

The dead ball appeal would be heard at this point, but not from the coach.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by mcrowder
This is why I always announce OBS and the award even when the runner safely achieves the base I was going to award her. After the award, the baserunner CAN go back, touch first, and come back to 2nd. A savvy coach will have her do just that.

Nope, if you make the award, you have already deteremined the runner has completed and is satisfied with her running requirements

If I announce OBS, and the award, and the runner does not retouch - she's out on appeal.

My suggestion would be to let the play end. If it is apparent all play is finished, I would then kill the ball.
I would wait a few seconds (if defense starts to say something, I will hold up my hand in a gesture meant to wait. During this 3-5 seconds, if the runner makes no attempt to return or coach makes no attempt to have her return, I will accept the appeal and rule appropriately.

Not looking for cheap outs or trying to hurry the game along. Just trying to keep control, avoid confusion and make sure every happens when and where it is supposed to happen.

[mcrowder]

"Nope, if you make the award, you have already deteremined the runner has completed and is satisfied with her running requirements."

Not sure I understand your point here, Mike. When I make the award, I'm informing the runner (and her coaches) what base she is entitled to, due to the OBS. Your statement is confusing --- what if runner only made it to 2nd, and you award third? Surely making the award of third doesn't imply that I've "determined the runner has completed and is satisfied with her running requirements" So why would it imply that if the award happened to coincide with the base she attained.

What if she overruns my protection, and is safe anyway. Runner overruns/OBS at 1st base, I'm protecting to 2nd... ball gets away and she makes it to third. I still need to announce the OBS, and the award of 2nd base. She can stay at 3rd (and then be out on appeal at 1st) or she can (if the coach is smart, and saw the missed base) return, touch 1st, and go to her awarded base.

The award happens AFTER play has stopped, not during. The runner is then allowed "ample opportunity" to finish her baserunning duties before any appeal can be heard.

"During this 3-5 seconds, if the runner makes no attempt to return or coach makes no attempt to have her return," Why would runner return if you did not announce any award. Why would runner think that returning during a dead ball period is even allowed if you did not announce any award. Runner likely has no idea you called OBS, and even if she did --- if you don't announce the award, she has no idea where you are allowing her to go (even if she DID return to touch first). None of this sequence makes any sense.

[Rattlehead]

From Previous Post:

"12U : Nobody on Nobody Out. No Double base at First.
Batter hit a shot into the gap on left center field.
F3 is standing on 1B Prior to BR reaching 1B causing BR to miss 1B. BU and PU Both Signal Obstruction.
BR Takes a wide turn around 1st and is safe (Played on late tag) at 2nd. Time is called and Defensive Coach appeals the runner missing 1B.
What would be your call?"

I should have said. After attempted tag the ball was returned to circle and all play ceased. Coach asks for time and time was granted.

I wasn't on the field but the two officials that were posed this question to the UIC at the end of the day.

How can you call the runner out on appeal when the intent of the rule is to reduce the amount of contact on the field? The runner avoided contact but missed the base due to the defensive person standing on the base. In order for the runner to make the base they would have had to run over the defensive person.

What’s to stop a defensive coach from telling his girls on a hard shot to stand on the bag and Obstruct to see if the BR will miss the base and then just appeal the call after the ball is returned to the circle?

Though this may be incorrect to some but in my opinion the girl missed first base due to the Obstruction and due the nature of the hit, I would award her 2nd.

If she had gone back to first after missing the base and then proceeded to second and was played upon I would have killed the play and if the play was not close I would awarded her 1st.

If the play was close I would have killed it and awarded her 2nd.

[mcrowder]

Then, Rattlehead, you are completely misunderstanding the enforcement portion of the OBS rule, which has been beaten like a dead horse recently. I won't regurgitate the entire thing... but:

At the moment of OBS, the umpire is required to decide (right then and there) what base the runner is protected to (i.e. awarded). As specifically stated in ASA rule and casebook (and ISF, debeau! ), subsequent action should NOT alter the initial protection as judged by the umpire at the time of OBS.

Now, to answer your comments in specific:

"What’s to stop a defensive coach from telling his girls on a hard shot to stand on the bag and Obstruct to see if the BR will miss the base and then just appeal the call after the ball is returned to the circle?"

-----What stops them is that they lose the ability to get this runner out at 2nd base, which may be possible on a hard shot. MOST runners will still hit first base on the way through and end up taking a very wide turn because of the fielder standing on the bag - so in MOST cases, this perceived bonus of a shot at an appeal never materializes. The other problem for defense is the possibility that BU may award 3rd (or they may find an umpire who misunderstands enforcement, and after a stand-up play at 2nd, awards 3rd improperly).

Though this may be incorrect to some but in my opinion the girl missed first base due to the Obstruction and due the nature of the hit, I would award her 2nd.

----- You SHOULD award 2nd, due to the nature of the hit.

If she had gone back to first after missing the base and then proceeded to second and was played upon I would have killed the play and if the play was not close I would awarded her 1st.

----- This goes to what I said above. Now YOU are penalizing the runner because of the OBS. If YOU felt she would have made 2nd without the OBS, give her 2nd. Period. No further debate necessary... her returning to first does NOT alter your initial assessment.

If the play was close I would have killed it and awarded her 2nd.

----- Again - the closeness (or existence!) of the play at 2nd should have absolutely nothing to do with where you protect this runner to, and what base you award.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by mcrowder
"Nope, if you make the award, you have already deteremined the runner has completed and is satisfied with her running requirements."

Not sure I understand your point here, Mike. When I make the award, I'm informing the runner (and her coaches) what base she is entitled to, due to the OBS. Your statement is confusing --- what if runner only made it to 2nd, and you award third? Surely making the award of third doesn't imply that I've "determined the runner has completed and is satisfied with her running requirements" So why would it imply that if the award happened to coincide with the base she attained.

To make an award, the ball must be dead. When the ball becomes dead, the runner must be given every chance to complete their running assignments. Once you are satisfied that the runner has completed their assignments, then they can accept the appeal.

You are correct, they can go back after the award. I had that confused with 8.5.G.Effect. However. as a matter of caution, I would still use my progress as a timeline to make sure you have all your ducks in a row.

Even though the runner is allowed to complete their running duties during a dead ball period, there must be some point where the defense can confidently make an appeal without fear of the runner returning.

"During this 3-5 seconds, if the runner makes no attempt to return or coach makes no attempt to have her return," Why would runner return if you did not announce any award. Why would runner think that returning during a dead ball period is even allowed if you did not announce any award. Runner likely has no idea you called OBS, and even if she did --- if you don't announce the award, she has no idea where you are allowing her to go (even if she DID return to touch first). None of this sequence makes any sense.

[MrRabbit]

First of all you never award bases on obstruction if the runner reaches the base you thought they would have reached safely. Since it is a delayed dead ball call, no out, drop the arm, no call.

If they miss first because of the obstruction it is their responsibility to go back and touch it. Since we make a decision as to the base they would have reached when obstruction occurs. You as a umpire are not required to let then know that they were obstructed unless you have a out.

Second since they were safe the ball is alive, so if they reach the awarded base and are safe and the coach yells that they missed first, offense better move fast to get back to first or the defense makes a live ball appeal. Or the defensive coach gets time called if the runner makes no attempt to return to missed base and make a dead ball appeal for the missed base and you call them out on the appeal..

Also if they do make it back to first safely during the live ball, that is the base they are going to get.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by MrRabbit


Second since they were safe the ball is alive, so if they reach the awarded base and are safe and the coach yells that they missed first, offense better move fast to get back to first or the defense makes a live ball appeal.

The live ball appeal is a good point, but the offered scenario specifically noted the ball was dead.

Also if they do make it back to first safely during the live ball, that is the base they are going to get.

No, I don't believe this is so as if the runner is protected to a certain base due to the OBS, they will (or, at least, should) still receive that base once the play is over.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by MrRabbit
Also if they do make it back to first safely during the live ball, that is the base they are going to get.

Based on what?

Speaking ASA, the judgment as to the protected base was made at the time of the OBS. It is improper interpretation of the rule's application to now re-judge the protected base due to the missed base.

[MrRabbit]

I would never call time on the obstruction unless the batter runner is called out or I'm going to award bases beyond the base that the runner was on, it is not proper mechanics.

Also missing first on the obstruction does not give her second again if she does manage to retouch first safely. The runner must still run the bases in the proper manner. If I had called obstruction at first and the runner goes back to touch it and does not attempt second I will have a dead ball and award the base I think they would have obtained. The runner gives up second base were they failed to run the bases in the proper manner. So if she gets back to first safely on the missed base I'm leaving them there.

TO IRISHMAFIA
Originally posted by MrRabbit

Second since they were safe the ball is alive, so if they reach the awarded base and are safe and the coach yells that they missed first, offense better move fast to get back to first or the defense makes a live ball appeal.

Misunderstanding I was referring to the runner being safe at second.

What is your take on give the runner second again after they safely got back to first. see my thoughts above.

Thanks for your input in advance.

Rabbit