Unreported sub or illegal sub

[NSABlue]

I've been reading this board for two seasons and have finally decided to post. High School varsity game played under NFHS rules. The starting catcher gets a base hit in the first inning. The coach legally replaces her with a courtesy runner as he always does because the catcher is a girl of size and wears a knee brace. She can hardly run at all. Anyway, later in the game, the coach has put made several defensive changes and the starting catcher is now playing 3rd base. She comes up to bat and gets another base hit. Coach yells time and sends out the same courtesy runner but of course you can't have a courtesy runner for the third baseman. A pitch is thrown and the opposing coach protests. Since the runner is an available sub, is this treated as an unreported sub and issue a team warning or do we call the runner out and restrict her to the bench?

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by NSABlue
I've been reading this board for two seasons and have finally decided to post. High School varsity game played under NFHS rules. The starting catcher gets a base hit in the first inning. The coach legally replaces her with a courtesy runner as he always does because the catcher is a girl of size and wears a knee brace. She can hardly run at all. Anyway, later in the game, the coach has put made several defensive changes and the starting catcher is now playing 3rd base. She comes up to bat and gets another base hit. Coach yells time and sends out the same courtesy runner but of course you can't have a courtesy runner for the third baseman. A pitch is thrown and the opposing coach protests. Since the runner is an available sub, is this treated as an unreported sub and issue a team warning or do we call the runner out and restrict her to the bench?

Interesting question. When the coach approached the PU, what did he say. Did he say that he wanted to put in so and so as a courtesy runner? If so, the PU should have, at that time, told the coach that he cannot do this. That would have eliminated all of the problems then and there. All subs, CRs included, must be reported to the plate umpire. If the CR or the sub was not reported to the PU, then you have an unreported sub.

When the coach "yells time and sends out the same courtesy runner," was nothing said about a courtesy runner coming in to the plate umpire?

By the way...welcome to the board.

[NSABlue]

I've been doing high school ball and NSA Travel ball and have known this player for years. I have never seen her play any position but catcher. I was (I admit) a mental error on my part. By the way, I ruled an unreported sub and had no problems. It was a good reminder to stay sharp and to take nothing for granted.

[Illefsfum]

+1

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by umpire12

lets disect this....."the PU should have, at that time, told the coach that he cannot do this."..understanding the benefits of preventive umpiring, i find this aproach to be most unfair to the defensive coach that happens to know the rules...

So....you are saying that you will accept illegal substitutions when they are reported to you?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

So....you are saying that you will accept illegal substitutions when they are reported to you?

Coach: Hey, Blue!
Umpire: What's up, Coach?
Coach: My runner on 2B is a little on the slow side, so on the 2nd pitch, she's gonna leave a little early, okay?
Umpire: Yeah, no problem unless the other team complains and shows they know the rules.
Coach: Thanks, Blue, knew you would understand.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by umpire12

"the PU should have, at that time, told the coach that he cannot do this."..understanding the benefits of preventive umpiring, i find this aproach to be most unfair to the defensive coach that happens to know the rules...

That's just wrong.

If I'm aware that the offense is trying to put in a CR for someone other than F1 or F2, I won't allow it. If it happens without my knowledge, then we have some fixing to do.

And how do you know the defensive coach knows the rules or not?

Twice now in recent tournaments while on the bases, I overheard the coach tell the PU that "the Flex and DP were swapping". I went in and talked to the PU [different guys] and told him to clarify w/ the coach and that someone had now left the game.

[tcannizzo]

Coach: Hey Blue, I am going to "courtesy run" for my P.
Umpire: Sorry Coach, but you are not currently on the lineup card.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by umpire12

...so you would give the coach a heads up when you know they are batting out of order as well?

As you say, a silly comparison. The coach does not report each batter as she comes up. The coach does report CRs and subs. I am not going to knowingly record an illegal change on the lineup card.

BTW, did anyone notice this thread is over 40 years old (in dog years), resurrected by some pointless bump?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

BTW, did anyone notice this thread is over 40 years old (in dog years), resurrected by some pointless bump?

Reported?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

BTW, did anyone notice this thread is over 40 years old (in dog years), resurrected by some pointless bump?

Yup.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by umpire12

maybe a bit silly but, no the coach does not always report CRs and subs and if it does happen its not my job to point it out to the offended team. the onus is on the offended coach to recognize the violation

Who said anything about pointing it out to the offended team?

Would you accept an illegal lineup at the plate meeting? No? Then why would you accept an illegal lineup in the 3rd inning (or whenever)?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by umpire12

of course i would certainly not accept an illegal change however the point i am trying to make is as much as i believe in preventive umpiring , i think that giving assistance and advice to either side at some point becomes unfair. its a matter of what level of assistance you are comfortable with as an individual......do you agree with that?

So...now I am really curious. How would you "not accept" the illegal change but not let the coach know???

If you don't accept the change, you say something along the lines of "coach, that can't be done."

[HugoTafurst]

[QUOTE=umpire12;770412]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

That's just wrong.

If I'm aware that the offense is trying to put in a CR for someone other than F1 or F2, I won't allow it. If it happens without my knowledge, then we have some fixing to do.

And how do you know the defensive coach knows the rules or not?

if it does happen without your knowledge its illegal and considered an illegal runner not an unreported sub. i don't know if either coach knows the rules and I'm not there to give them a clinic

so you would give the coach a heads up when you know they are batting out of order as well?

Disagree with the bolded part...... If the player that runs for (now) F5 is an eligible sub, it is not an illegal player, merely an unreported sub.

[Andy]

NFHS...2011 rule book (may be different from 2005)

8-9-1: The team at bat may use a courtesy runner for the pitcher and/or catcher at any time....

Penalty: Illegal substitute as in 3-4

3-4 Penalty: Illegal sub restricted to the dugout and called out.

On the issue of preventative umpiring in a situation like this...I discussed this with an ASA regional UIC at the clinic earlier this year. I had the same question as umpire12....at what point does preventative umpiring become coaching? How would you respond to a DC that says that you (umpire) can't tell the OC that he is making an illegal substitution and taking away his (DC) opportunity to get an out and a player removed from the game?

The response should be: Coach - I would do the same thing for you if you inadvertantly tried to do something illegal with the lineup.

I can live with that.