Unreported sub or illegal sub

[Andy]

NFHS...2011 rule book (may be different from 2005)

8-9-1: The team at bat may use a courtesy runner for the pitcher and/or catcher at any time....

Penalty: Illegal substitute as in 3-4

3-4 Penalty: Illegal sub restricted to the dugout and called out.

On the issue of preventative umpiring in a situation like this...I discussed this with an ASA regional UIC at the clinic earlier this year. I had the same question as umpire12....at what point does preventative umpiring become coaching? How would you respond to a DC that says that you (umpire) can't tell the OC that he is making an illegal substitution and taking away his (DC) opportunity to get an out and a player removed from the game?

The response should be: Coach - I would do the same thing for you if you inadvertantly tried to do something illegal with the lineup.

I can live with that.

[Dakota]

Explain to me how you would keep a legal lineup card in your pocket without "coddling" the coach who is reporting an illegal change to the lineup? A change to the lineup is required, by rule, to go through the plate umpire. The only way an illegal player should ever end up in the game is if the illegal player is also unreported.

I "volunteer" the number of outs sometimes, especially if I am working alone. I also will tell any player or coach who asks. If I'm PU, after a long pause (such as bringing in a relief pitcher, tending to an injured player, etc.) I will restate the count (if applicable) and the number of outs. However, I find the practice of pointing out to the relief pitcher where the runners are to be mildly bush league and unnecessary.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by umpire12

so, lets take this to the nth degree...2nd inning: blue, i want my flex to hit for my left fielder. coach, you cant do that. lets take a look at your lineup and see what we can do.

Why look at the lineup card to see what we can do, when there is nothing "we can do"?
If F7 is the current batter, the answer is simply, "Flex can only hit for DP."

Originally Posted by umpire12

blue, i to put a courtesy runner in for my shortstop. coach, you cant do that. lets take a look at your lineup and see whos pitching and catching.

Why would you look at the lineup card to see what we can do, when there is nothing "we can do"?
"Coach, you can only CR for P or C."

Originally Posted by umpire12

blue, id like my sub who already reentered to enter again. coach, you cant do that. lets take a look at your lineup and see what we can do..

Why would you look at the lineup card to see what we can do, when there is nothing "we can do"?
"Coach, your sub is done and may not re-enter."

Originally Posted by umpire12

3rd inning: the same...4th inning the same....etc......you would continue to assist the coach ?

I do not consider any of my responses assisting the coach.

Question to you, is why did coach wait until the 2nd inning?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by umpire12

so, your answer is yes, i would let it continue?....there comes a point where, yes, i condider it assisting and becomes unfair to the other team

Simple answer to all of your scenarios.

"No, coach, you can't do that." Possibly a brief explanation along the lines tcannizzo gave, but that's it. If he is truly so clueless he continues to offer illegal changes, I may just tell him to sit down unless he wants to make a legal change and quit wasting my time.

I don't understand what you would do that would not have you enter an illegal change on your lineup card. So, answer your own scenario. What would YOU do?

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by umpire12

the reason i look at the lineup card is because i dont have the flex, dp and available and unavaiable subs memorized...ergo, 'lets take a look'

Didn't you say that the coach said "i want my flex to bat for SS"? or did the coach actually say something else, like "#22 batting for #7", then in the process of validating the substitution you noticed that #22 is Flex and #7 was not the DP. Taking to the nth degree, the DP might have been playing SS at the time.

Originally Posted by umpire12

so, your answer is yes, i would let it continue?....there comes a point where, yes, i condider it assisting and becomes unfair to the other team

The question is how long to let this thread continue trying to answer questions that you didn't ask - or did you?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by umpire12

"If he is truly so clueless he continues to offer illegal changes, I may just tell him to sit down unless he wants to make a legal change and quit wasting my time".


so you would deny him the opportunity......i would think that would be protestable

So, I ask again, what would you do? (And denying a coach the opportunity to make an illegal change is hardly protestable.)

[Dakota]

What would you do? Answer the question.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Dakota

What would you do? Answer the question.

Dakota,
I'm not sure where this is going...

FWIW, here is what I would do.

After the sub was given to me and (before I accepted it) I noticed it would be illegal, I would inform the coach that the substitution would be illegal - he can't do it.
I can't imagine him insisting I make the substitution, BUT if she did, I'd accept it. record it, announce it.

Then when I put the ball in play, I'd have to stop play and enforce the illegal player penalty.

I can't imagine it getting to that, but, that's all I can figure to do.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Dakota,
I'm not sure where this is going...

FWIW, here is what I would do.

After the sub was given to me and (before I accepted it) I noticed it would be illegal, I would inform the coach that the substitution would be illegal - he can't do it.
I can't imagine him insisting I make the substitution, BUT if she did,

Speaking ASA,

To start, lets note that there is no "illegal substitution" in ASA. You have an "unreported substitute" or an "illegal player".

At this point, you have already warned the coach that this substitution was a violation of the rules. If the coach then insisted on violating the rule after a warning, the game is over. (ASA 5.4.F) Extreme, absolutely. However, when you tell the coach that if s/he insist on making the change the game will be forfeited, most likely the issue would disappear.

I'd accept it. record it, announce it.

Then when I put the ball in play, I'd have to stop play and enforce the illegal player penalty.

Well, you cannot do that. If the violation is deemed that of an illegal player, this must be protested by the offended team. (ASA 4.6.E)

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA,

To start, lets note that there is no "illegal substitution" in ASA. You have an "unreported substitute" or an "illegal player".

At this point, you have already warned the coach that this substitution was a violation of the rules. If the coach then insisted on violating the rule after a warning, the game is over. (ASA 5.4.F) Extreme, absolutely. However, when you tell the coach that if s/he insist on making the change the game will be forfeited, most likely the issue would disappear.



Well, you cannot do that. If the violation is deemed that of an illegal player, this must be protested by the offended team. (ASA 4.6.E)

(For the record, I'm aware that there is no such thing as an illegal sub - just worded it the way I did because substituting an illegal player would be, well, illegal - or as you so accurately put it, a violation of the rules)....)

Be that as it may, I wouldn't really expect the coach to continue with the substitution anyway, but in the unlikely event that she did I now know the next step.

Thanks

(edited to add):

Just got back to my desk and realized that my original answer camer from NFHS (with which I am more familiar than ASA).

NFHS 3-4 recognizes an illegal substitute and that

"Illegal offensive or defensive players may be discovered by the
umpire or either team anytime after the ball becomes live and an illegal substitute
has taken a position as:
a. a runner she has replaced or as a batter in the batter's box;
b. a pitcher on the pitcher's plate, or as a fielder reaching a position usually
occupied by the fielder being replaced; or
c. a courtesy runner if that player has violated the courtesy-runner rule."

I'll check my shirt before deciding how to handle the situation..... ;-)


Either way, I still think it is pretty unlikely that after being informed of the situation, it is unlikely that head coach would continue with the illegal substitution (or substitution of an illegal player).

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Dakota,
I'm not sure where this is going...

Where this was going was trying to get our friend to quit being a troll and actually say what HE would do.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by umpire12

there is no need to resort to name calling or labeling..

What do you call someone who only argues and offers nothing positive to a discussion?

And, the difference between Mike's response and mine is he threatened to forfeit the game, and I would've told the coach to sit down. I guess he would win the protest, but lose the game by forfeit as a result? Sure, that would happen.

In reality, neither my ultimate response nor Mike's would ever happen. I've dealt with this situation (coach wanting to do something that he can't with the lineup) many times, and the coach always, without fail, and without argument, makes a legal choice.

You, OTOH, would apparently fill out an illegal lineup and see if anyone notices. Thanks for finally answering the question. It sure seemed like you apparently wanted everyone else (but not you) to answer your questions so you could argue more.

[Dakota]

Yet, you refused repeated requests to actually answer the question while pressing the argument to greater levels of absurdity.

Originally Posted by umpire12

...you just became a better umpire by merely exchanging rhetoric....

Speak for yourself.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA, [snip] If the violation is deemed that of an illegal player, this must be protested by the offended team. (ASA 4.6.E)

Per the book, why is an unreported substitute (4.6.B) or an illegal player (4.6.E) handled as a protest rather than an appeal? A protest may mean stopping the game and finding the UIC.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by umpire12

theres that word argument again..im not sure why you choose to draw a negative from such a positive opportunity to grow as an umpire..i suppose when one rebuts a counterpoint you consider it an argument. a prerequisite for an argument i think would be anger. im not angry, you seem to be..a second prerequisite would be for both sides to state a position. as you astutely noticed, i didnt. i merely suggested different possibilities and considerations.....as far as speaking for myself, i was hoping i was speaking for both of us...remember, when youre through learning, youre through as an umpire

You obviously do not understand the meaning of the word "argument", tending to focus on the very narrow meaning of quarrel. That is your problem, not mine. Here, maybe this will help:

Definition of ARGUMENT
: a reason given in proof or rebuttal
: discourse intended to persuade
: a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion

And, quit using your narrow understanding of the language to attempt to assign emotion to my typed words, or to my thinking behind them.

No, I learned nothing about umpiring from your arguments; perhaps I did learn a bit about you.