Unreported sub or illegal sub

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by umpire12

"the PU should have, at that time, told the coach that he cannot do this."..understanding the benefits of preventive umpiring, i find this aproach to be most unfair to the defensive coach that happens to know the rules...

That's just wrong.

If I'm aware that the offense is trying to put in a CR for someone other than F1 or F2, I won't allow it. If it happens without my knowledge, then we have some fixing to do.

And how do you know the defensive coach knows the rules or not?

Twice now in recent tournaments while on the bases, I overheard the coach tell the PU that "the Flex and DP were swapping". I went in and talked to the PU [different guys] and told him to clarify w/ the coach and that someone had now left the game.

[tcannizzo]

Coach: Hey Blue, I am going to "courtesy run" for my P.
Umpire: Sorry Coach, but you are not currently on the lineup card.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by umpire12

...so you would give the coach a heads up when you know they are batting out of order as well?

As you say, a silly comparison. The coach does not report each batter as she comes up. The coach does report CRs and subs. I am not going to knowingly record an illegal change on the lineup card.

BTW, did anyone notice this thread is over 40 years old (in dog years), resurrected by some pointless bump?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

BTW, did anyone notice this thread is over 40 years old (in dog years), resurrected by some pointless bump?

Reported?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Dakota

BTW, did anyone notice this thread is over 40 years old (in dog years), resurrected by some pointless bump?

Yup.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by umpire12

maybe a bit silly but, no the coach does not always report CRs and subs and if it does happen its not my job to point it out to the offended team. the onus is on the offended coach to recognize the violation

Who said anything about pointing it out to the offended team?

Would you accept an illegal lineup at the plate meeting? No? Then why would you accept an illegal lineup in the 3rd inning (or whenever)?

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by umpire12

of course i would certainly not accept an illegal change however the point i am trying to make is as much as i believe in preventive umpiring , i think that giving assistance and advice to either side at some point becomes unfair. its a matter of what level of assistance you are comfortable with as an individual......do you agree with that?

So...now I am really curious. How would you "not accept" the illegal change but not let the coach know???

If you don't accept the change, you say something along the lines of "coach, that can't be done."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by umpire12

you are missing my point.....the point i am trying to make is as much as i believe in preventive umpiring , i think that giving assistance and advice to either side at some point becomes unfair. its a matter of what level of assistance you are comfortable with as an individual......do you agree with that?

ill ask you once again

As silly as you believed my previous scenario, it is quite applicable. OUR POINT is why would you knowingly effect a violation of the rules?

You are not assisting anyone other than yourself. You are doing the job for which you are being paid.

[HugoTafurst]

[QUOTE=umpire12;770412]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

That's just wrong.

If I'm aware that the offense is trying to put in a CR for someone other than F1 or F2, I won't allow it. If it happens without my knowledge, then we have some fixing to do.

And how do you know the defensive coach knows the rules or not?

if it does happen without your knowledge its illegal and considered an illegal runner not an unreported sub. i don't know if either coach knows the rules and I'm not there to give them a clinic

so you would give the coach a heads up when you know they are batting out of order as well?

Disagree with the bolded part...... If the player that runs for (now) F5 is an eligible sub, it is not an illegal player, merely an unreported sub.

[Andy]

NFHS...2011 rule book (may be different from 2005)

8-9-1: The team at bat may use a courtesy runner for the pitcher and/or catcher at any time....

Penalty: Illegal substitute as in 3-4

3-4 Penalty: Illegal sub restricted to the dugout and called out.

On the issue of preventative umpiring in a situation like this...I discussed this with an ASA regional UIC at the clinic earlier this year. I had the same question as umpire12....at what point does preventative umpiring become coaching? How would you respond to a DC that says that you (umpire) can't tell the OC that he is making an illegal substitution and taking away his (DC) opportunity to get an out and a player removed from the game?

The response should be: Coach - I would do the same thing for you if you inadvertantly tried to do something illegal with the lineup.

I can live with that.

[Dakota]

Explain to me how you would keep a legal lineup card in your pocket without "coddling" the coach who is reporting an illegal change to the lineup? A change to the lineup is required, by rule, to go through the plate umpire. The only way an illegal player should ever end up in the game is if the illegal player is also unreported.

I "volunteer" the number of outs sometimes, especially if I am working alone. I also will tell any player or coach who asks. If I'm PU, after a long pause (such as bringing in a relief pitcher, tending to an injured player, etc.) I will restate the count (if applicable) and the number of outs. However, I find the practice of pointing out to the relief pitcher where the runners are to be mildly bush league and unnecessary.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by umpire12

so, lets take this to the nth degree...2nd inning: blue, i want my flex to hit for my left fielder. coach, you cant do that. lets take a look at your lineup and see what we can do.

Why look at the lineup card to see what we can do, when there is nothing "we can do"?
If F7 is the current batter, the answer is simply, "Flex can only hit for DP."

Originally Posted by umpire12

blue, i to put a courtesy runner in for my shortstop. coach, you cant do that. lets take a look at your lineup and see whos pitching and catching.

Why would you look at the lineup card to see what we can do, when there is nothing "we can do"?
"Coach, you can only CR for P or C."

Originally Posted by umpire12

blue, id like my sub who already reentered to enter again. coach, you cant do that. lets take a look at your lineup and see what we can do..

Why would you look at the lineup card to see what we can do, when there is nothing "we can do"?
"Coach, your sub is done and may not re-enter."

Originally Posted by umpire12

3rd inning: the same...4th inning the same....etc......you would continue to assist the coach ?

I do not consider any of my responses assisting the coach.

Question to you, is why did coach wait until the 2nd inning?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by umpire12

so, your answer is yes, i would let it continue?....there comes a point where, yes, i condider it assisting and becomes unfair to the other team

Simple answer to all of your scenarios.

"No, coach, you can't do that." Possibly a brief explanation along the lines tcannizzo gave, but that's it. If he is truly so clueless he continues to offer illegal changes, I may just tell him to sit down unless he wants to make a legal change and quit wasting my time.

I don't understand what you would do that would not have you enter an illegal change on your lineup card. So, answer your own scenario. What would YOU do?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by umpire12

"If he is truly so clueless he continues to offer illegal changes, I may just tell him to sit down unless he wants to make a legal change and quit wasting my time".


so you would deny him the opportunity......i would think that would be protestable

So, I ask again, what would you do? (And denying a coach the opportunity to make an illegal change is hardly protestable.)

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by umpire12

the reason i look at the lineup card is because i dont have the flex, dp and available and unavaiable subs memorized...ergo, 'lets take a look'

Didn't you say that the coach said "i want my flex to bat for SS"? or did the coach actually say something else, like "#22 batting for #7", then in the process of validating the substitution you noticed that #22 is Flex and #7 was not the DP. Taking to the nth degree, the DP might have been playing SS at the time.

Originally Posted by umpire12

so, your answer is yes, i would let it continue?....there comes a point where, yes, i condider it assisting and becomes unfair to the other team

The question is how long to let this thread continue trying to answer questions that you didn't ask - or did you?