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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 09:48pm
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Girl on third base with two out. Catcher drops third strike. Catcher trys unsuccessfully to tag out runner coming in from third, then tags out batter for third out. Umpire says the run scores because of continuation and the attempt at the third base runner. I thought even a tag out before a runner reaches first constitutes a force play for the third out and nobody scores. What if the catcher did succesfully throw to first after missing runner coming home? Thanx!
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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 10:02pm
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Blue loses on this one. BR must reach first safely NO MATTER WHAT ELSE HAPPENS OR HOW THE BR IS PUT OUT. If that BR doesn't touch first after she has become a base runner with 2 outs, there ain't nobody scoring.
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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 10:42pm
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I hate to throw a damp towel in this, but are you really saying that a steal of home does not count because the batter didn't get to first on time? I'd like to see the NFHS cite on this. Thanks.
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Old Tue Apr 19, 2005, 10:50pm
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Instead of throwing wet towels around, let's just go to the book.

NFHS 9 (Scoring) - 1.1 A runner scores each time she .....touches .....home plate before there are three outs ......

Exceptions: A run IS NOT SCORED if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made by the batter-runner before touching first base.

Should be plain - doesn't matter if R1 is stealing, or coming home on a batted ball, or on an uncaught third strike. Her run does not count if the B-R is put out before reaching 1B.

WMB

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Old Wed Apr 20, 2005, 02:05am
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"Umpire says the run scores because of continuation and the attempt at the third base runner."

I thought scoring on a "continuation play" was only in basketball.

Bob
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Old Wed Apr 20, 2005, 03:36am
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We have had a large debate recently on this one .
Fielders choice to try and get 3rd out from runner which missed so run scores on a timong play .
Why penalise the offense for a defensive error .
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Old Wed Apr 20, 2005, 07:12am
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We have had a large debate recently on this one .
Fielders choice to try and get 3rd out from runner which missed so run scores on a timong play .
Why penalise the offense for a defensive error .


Run does not score. See WMB's post. I think your joking here, right?

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Old Wed Apr 20, 2005, 08:23am
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Another "interesting" interp from NZ. And wrong.

The rule is clear. The run doesn't score on ANY play where BR is retired before reaching first.

Consider several other similar scenarios.

Runner on 3rd, 2 out in all sitches.

1) Batter hits the ball right in front of the plate. F2 fields and tries to tag R1, fails, and fires to first to retire BR. No run. (Is this how you'd call it in NZ?)

2) R1 stealing, Batter foultips, which hits catchers glove, bounces up about 3 feet. Runner crosses plate prior to catcher catching it, but she DOES catch it. BR out. No run. (Is this how you'd call it in NZ?)

3) D3K, ball gets away, R1 crosses home (no attempt to retire her), F2 recovers in time to throw out BR at 1st. No run. (Assuming this one is REALLY easy, and even in NZ the run doesn't score.... but my question on this one is --- where in the rulebook do you justify scoring the run in the original sitch because of "an attempt to retire R1"?)
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Old Wed Apr 20, 2005, 08:48am
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Quote:
Originally posted by debeau
We have had a large debate recently on this one .
Fielders choice to try and get 3rd out from runner which missed so run scores on a timong play .
Why penalise the offense for a defensive error .
Defensive error? What about the point the offensive player failed to put the ball into play, struck out and apparently didn't even bother to attempt to reach first on an uncaught third strike?

Sorry, but on an U3K, all play is handled as if the ball were put into play by the batter. Another hand-me-down from the game of Rounders.

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Old Wed Apr 20, 2005, 09:15am
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Would this not be a foul ball

Quote:
Originally posted by mcrowder

2) R1 stealing, Batter foultips, which hits catchers glove, bounces up about 3 feet. Runner crosses plate prior to catcher catching it, but she DOES catch it. BR out. No run. (Is this how you'd call it in NZ?)
Would this not be a foul ball? I've always been told that a foul tip must be caught cleanly. By definition a foul tip is....

A batted ball that goes DIRECTLY from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher.

If the ball bounces up off of the catchers glove, then, in my opinion, the ball did not go DIRECTLY to the glove.

So in this situation I would have a foul ball and put the runner back on 3rd.
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Old Wed Apr 20, 2005, 09:20am
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RW - Then where, in your opinion, did it go directly to?
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Old Wed Apr 20, 2005, 09:26am
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It went....

To the glove, into the air, back to the glove. It wasn't caught cleanly. So a batted ball that goes from the bat back to the catcher who then juggles it (i.e goes from hand to glove and back several times) is a foul tip?

Has anyone else been told the same thing, that a foul tip must be caught cleanly?

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Old Wed Apr 20, 2005, 09:36am
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Re: It went....

Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
To the glove, into the air, back to the glove. It wasn't caught cleanly. So a batted ball that goes from the bat back to the catcher who then juggles it (i.e goes from hand to glove and back several times) is a foul tip?

Has anyone else been told the same thing, that a foul tip must be caught cleanly?

No, and by the definition of a foul tip it just states that a foul tip
is a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's
mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher. Then go to Rule 2
Section 10 Art 2....
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Old Wed Apr 20, 2005, 09:41am
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You actually answered your own question there, before the comma. Where did the ball go directly to? Answer: To the glove. Therefore, foul tip if eventually caught. The rule does not say "caught cleanly", or even "caught immediately". It says "and then caught legally".

Contrast this with a ball that goes directly to catcher's equipment and then is eventually caught ---- not a foul tip.

My momma told me to go directly to the store, without going over to Sneaky Pete's. So I went directly to the store. And then took the long way home.
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Old Wed Apr 20, 2005, 09:42am
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Re: Re: It went....

Quote:
Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Quote:
Originally posted by rwest
To the glove, into the air, back to the glove. It wasn't caught cleanly. So a batted ball that goes from the bat back to the catcher who then juggles it (i.e goes from hand to glove and back several times) is a foul tip?

Has anyone else been told the same thing, that a foul tip must be caught cleanly?

No, and by the definition of a foul tip it just states that a foul tip
is a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's
mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher. Then go to Rule 2
Section 10 Art 2....
I don't have a rule 2 Section 10 Art 2. Also, the definition of a foul tip says nothing about "sharply". Are you talking ASA or Fed? I'm talking ASA.

I still do not believe this is a foul tip, but I'll have to check with my UIC and adjust my understanding accordingly.

I'm not immune to changing how I call the game, when I've been proven wrong.


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