dropped third strike

[JEL]

Originally posted by rwest
To the glove, into the air, back to the glove. It wasn't caught cleanly. So a batted ball that goes from the bat back to the catcher who then juggles it (i.e goes from hand to glove and back several times) is a foul tip?

Has anyone else been told the same thing, that a foul tip must be caught cleanly?

FOUL TIP;

A batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher.


Directly to the glove, and legally caught won't all have to be in the same second. Think about a legally caught fly ball. When can a runner tag? after the catch, or first contact?

[rwest]

Can I remove this play from the case book? It seems to prove me wrong! DOH!

The ball goes directly from the bat, (a) touches the catcher's glove or hand and then rebounds from the catcher or their equipment, (b) from the bat, strikes the catcher's body, their protective equipment or the umpire. In both cases, the ball rebounds into the glove or hand or the catcher and is held.

Ruling: In (a) it is a foul tip and a strike, in (b) it is a foul ball. The ball cannot be a foul tip if it first touches anything other than the catcher's glove or hand. (1-FOUL TIP; 1-FOUL BALL-G; 7-4D)

So if the ball goes directly to the hand or mit before touching anthing else other than the ground is it ia foul tip?
If we modify (a) so that the ball goes from the bat to the catcher's glove then off of the umpire into the catcher's glove, is this a foul tip? Or can it only rebound off of the catcher or catchers equipment after touching their glove?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by rwest
By definition a foul tip is....

A batted ball that goes DIRECTLY from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher.

Notice it does not say "and is directly caught..."

The "directly" part means directly to what it touches first. Notice the companion rule, ASA 1-FOUL BALL-G where it goes directly to the catcher's equipment, rather than the hands or glove.

If the ball goes "indirectly" to the catcher's glove and is caught, it is a catch for an out. That is the distinction being made - does it first go directly to the glove/hands or not? Makes no difference if it rebounds up into the air after going directly to the hands; if it is caught, it is a foul tip. Otherwise, it is a foul ball.

[rwest]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakota
[B]

Originally posted by rwest

If the ball goes "indirectly" to the catcher's glove and is caught, it is a catch for an out. That is the distinction being made - does it first go directly to the glove/hands or not? Makes no difference if it rebounds up into the air after going directly to the hands; if it is caught, it is a foul tip. Otherwise, it is a foul ball.

Would it be an out if it goes "indirectly" to the catcher's glove? I don't think so. By "indirectly" this means it must have touched something else, such as the batter or the umpire. In both of these cases we have a foul ball and a strike if these than 2 strikes.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by rwest
So if the ball goes directly to the hand or mit before touching anthing else other than the ground is it ia foul tip?

Must be caught, too.

Originally posted by rwest
If we modify (a) so that the ball goes from the bat to the catcher's glove then off of the umpire into the catcher's glove, is this a foul tip? Or can it only rebound off of the catcher or catchers equipment after touching their glove?

Definition of catch; definition of foul ball. ASA 1-FOUL BALL-B.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Another "interesting" interp from NZ. And wrong.

The rule is clear. The run doesn't score on ANY play where BR is retired before reaching first.

Consider several other similar scenarios.

Runner on 3rd, 2 out in all sitches.

1) Batter hits the ball right in front of the plate. F2 fields and tries to tag R1, fails, and fires to first to retire BR. No run. (Is this how you'd call it in NZ?)

2) R1 stealing, Batter foultips, which hits catchers glove, bounces up about 3 feet. Runner crosses plate prior to catcher catching it, but she DOES catch it. BR out. No run. (Is this how you'd call it in NZ?)

3) D3K, ball gets away, R1 crosses home (no attempt to retire her), F2 recovers in time to throw out BR at 1st. No run. (Assuming this one is REALLY easy, and even in NZ the run doesn't score.... but my question on this one is --- where in the rulebook do you justify scoring the run in the original sitch because of "an attempt to retire R1"?)

Excellent examples... suicide squeeze play with 2 outs. If the catcher makes a play on the runner, misses, and then fires to first for the out, you score the run? I don't think so!

[murphyt]

that was quick. Now I have an umpire to go stalk and kill since it cost my daughter's High School team a share of the league lead. It doesn't surprise me though since I once saw the same ump call an infield fly rule with first base open that cost my niece a championship game. He admitted he was wrong but didn't rectify it.

[Just Curious]

Originally posted by rwest
If we modify (a) so that the ball goes from the bat to the catcher's glove then off of the umpire into the catcher's glove, is this a foul tip? Or can it only rebound off of the catcher or catchers equipment after touching their glove?

Speaking FED

SECTION 25 FOUL BALL, FOUL TIP

ART. 1 . . . Foul Ball. A foul ball is a batted ball that:
d. while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire, a player or any object foreign to the natural ground;

ART. 2 . . . Foul Tip. A foul tip is a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher. It is a strike. (In fast pitch, the ball remains live, but in slow pitch, the ball becomes dead.)

SECTION 10 CATCH
ART. 1 . . . Catch. A catch is the act of a fielder who, with her hand(s) and/or glove/mitt, securely gains possession of a batted, pitched or thrown ball. A catch shall not be credited if:

e. The ball strikes anything or anyone other than a defensive player while it is in flight.
NOTE: In this case the ball is ruled a ground ball.

So IMO a ball off of the umpire would be a foul ball.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by murphyt
Now I have an umpire to go stalk and kill since it cost my daughter's High School team a share of the league lead.

Figuratively, speaking, I'm sure.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by murphyt
that was quick. Now I have an umpire to go stalk and kill since it cost my daughter's High School team a share of the league lead. It doesn't surprise me though since I once saw the same ump call an infield fly rule with first base open that cost my niece a championship game. He admitted he was wrong but didn't rectify it.

BULL! If a team has to blame an umpire for their failure, they need to learn to play harder or find another pastime.

I'm sure your niece's team caught every ball cleanly, threw out every runner and batter runner, didn't walk any opposing batters and had extremely clean uniforms at the end of the game in the little town of Perfect, USA.

[mcrowder]

Always amazing, actually.

21 times, someone on the team either A) struck out, B) hit the ball in such a manner that she or a teammate was put out, or C) ran the bases in such a way that she was put out (don't bother with D, E, ad infinitum, I'm sure I missed something - but you get my point.) These 21 times, SOMEthing was executed poorly by the offense.

At the same time, pitcher or fielders performed their duties in such a fashion that the other team managed to get a run across the plate more times than they did.

And most seasons, this event (losing a game) happened multiple times.

And the umpire's single mistake "Cost my DD's team a share of the division lead." Unbelievable.

[murphyt]

.....the stalking is just a joke. I'm not one of those dad's that goes beserk on every pitch. Yes a team can easily blame an ump instead of themselves and have to account for their own failures. But so does the Ump! The game went into extra innings because the ump failed to interpret the rules, not because of a judgement call. If you take up umpiring, and this guys been doing it for over 20 years, you should at least make an attempt to understand the rules. Umpires take a lot of abuse and can never win, %50 of the people are usually mad at them. We did not abuse this ump for his ruling, merely pointed out his being wrong and continued play. They don't even allow for protests, so it could not be overruled. No, I'm not actually going to stalk the guy, I have better things to do, but I will notify him of his misinterpretation for further reference. I respect most Umps for putting up with unknowledgeable fans. I have a player's mentality (played USSSA A ball) and it would be tough for me to umpire even though I have successfully in the past. I'd end up telling the player to "shut up and hit the ball". And that is not good umping. Thanx again for verification fellas. Even though I was pretty sure I was right, I'm not so arrogant as to not ask others. All umps should use this forum to get better.

[murphyt]

....and by the way, yes teenage girls make mistakes and so do umps. But when an ump can rectify his mistake, and doesn't, he is arrogant. Don't tell me the call of "infield fly rule" with first base empty shoiuld have been overlooked because "Suzee" made two errors before the play. He could have advanced the runners one base and given the batter first base. The girls are whatthey are, the ump is a paid official. Nobody's perfect, but if you can't get that play right, then YOU should go find another past time.

[Dakota]

The point being made was not that umpires should not know the rules (you're preaching to the choir on this board), but that umpires do make mistakes, even when they know the rules. It is part of the game. Just like wild pitches, passed balls, fielding errors, swings at pitches in the dirt, and taking pitches down the middle.

The protest process was put in place to give coaches some recourse. Our HS league here does not allow protests, either, but they do have coaches rate the umpires. Taking away the protest may be a reaction to abuse of the process or perhaps a manpower shortage in the state HS league offices so they are unable to deal with it. Shame, really. It does help make the system self-correcting.

[murphyt]

....I appreciate what umps and refs do. I cover Junior College football and even at that level you get some horrendous calls. Part of the reason is that the referee pool gets dilluted because nobody wants the abuse. It's a tough job, and not many average citizens are up to the task. I personally commend everybody on these boards for sharing and learning. I tell my kids tht no matter how old you get, you should always try to learn more. The girls have already chalked up the loss as a life experience. Life isn't always fair and you have to fight on.