Who's responsible?

Rachel · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 11, 2005, 07:37pm

R1 on 1st. She steals but it's a foul ball to the screen. She stays at 2nd and no one notices until:

1. The next pitch.

2. Ground ball to ss probable double play, R1 moves to 3rd.

3. Single R1 scores on next pitch.

Are there penalties?
Too bad-So sad?

mo99 · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 11, 2005, 07:52pm

I dont think I ever saw that scenario without someone noticing the problem.As umpires,we should put that runner back on first before the next pitch.I have done that many times as the PU,call time out and put the runner back on the base previous to the foul ball.I would guess,that if no one,including the umpires,noticed the error,the play would stand.

Jeff
NCAA Umpire
NFHS Umpire
ASA Umpire

Dakota · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 11, 2005, 07:56pm

Some thoughts...

In 1 & 2, what about R1 is out - violation of LBR - no pitch, batter returns to the plate?

#3, maybe too bad, so sad.

Was the umpire less than vocal / demonstrative on the foul call because it was "obvious"? Or, was the runner / base coach trying to get away with one?

I gather this was a single umpire game?

mick · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 11, 2005, 08:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Was the umpire less than vocal / demonstrative on the foul call because it was "obvious"?

Oh, yeah, Tom!
He was demonstrative.
He yelled and signaled, "Foul tip!!!"

mick

HM1 Hammonds · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 11, 2005, 08:53pm

The runner being committing to advance to the next base satisfies their requirements for the LBR. IMO, LBR is not applicable since the foul ball rendered a dead ball call.
If the umpires did not notice the advancement, does it become an appeal play by the defense before the next pitch? BTW, umpires aren't perfect .

HM1 Hammonds · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 11, 2005, 08:55pm

Bottom line, it is the responsibility of either umpire (PU or FU) after calling the foul ball to ensure players return to their last base w/o liability of being put out.

Stat-Man · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 11, 2005, 11:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Was the umpire less than vocal / demonstrative on the foul call because it was "obvious"?

Oh, yeah, Tom!
He was demonstrative.
He yelled and signaled, "Foul tip!!!"
mick

Isn't a foul tip a live ball?

mick · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 12, 2005, 06:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by Stat-Man

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Was the umpire less than vocal / demonstrative on the foul call because it was "obvious"?

Oh, yeah, Tom!
He was demonstrative.
He yelled and signaled, "Foul tip!!!"
mick

Isn't a foul tip a live ball?

Hey, Stat-Man.
YU.P. if caught.
Nope if naught.

A foul tip, by definition, is caught and live.
mick

UmpireErnie · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 12, 2005, 07:30am

Back to the original question.. what happens if a runner does not return to original base after a foul ball and a pitch is thrown or a play is made.

ASA 8-6-A EFFECT and NFHS 8-5-1 PENALTY both say the same thing: the ball is dead and the runner(s) must return without liability to be put out.

So if somehow this runner's advance was not noticed and on the next pitch the BR drives her in to score would not the whole thing be nullified becuase the ball was dead by rule until R1 went back to first after the foul ball off the screen?

Of course the obvious answer is don't get into this situation, be aware of the runners and don't allow a pitch until the runners return.

Rachel · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 12, 2005, 07:34am

This situation did not happen in my game or any one that I have seen. It was asked by another umpire in an e-mail exchange. Is there anything in any book that allows the umpire to move anyone back after a pitch has been thrown?

JEL · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 12, 2005, 08:02am

Good 'ol 10-6-C (and it's counterparts in NCAA, FED et.al) is about all I can find which may deal with this specifically. I would consider placing the runner back on 1B after a pitch anyway, but after a hit, or ball in play it no longer is a "correctable situation"

8-5-G-4, BOO rules and others all give the "after the next pitch" phrase so if defense (or umpires) don't catch this it would seem to be mute after a pitch has been thrown.

Dakota · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 12, 2005, 09:15am

Quote:

Originally posted by JEL
Good 'ol 10-6-C (and it's counterparts in NCAA, FED et.al) is about all I can find which may deal with this specifically. I would consider placing the runner back on 1B after a pitch anyway, but after a hit, or ball in play it no longer is a "correctable situation"

8-5-G-4, BOO rules and others all give the "after the next pitch" phrase so if defense (or umpires) don't catch this it would seem to be mute after a pitch has been thrown.

The problem with applying ASA 10-6-C (Fed 10-2-3-m) is there was no delayed or reversed call by the umpire. Technically, a player advanced one base during a dead ball and no one noticed.

While not entirely serious about LBR, I do wonder - it is a rule that could be applied at the time of the pitch, or shortly thereafter, thereby neatly avoiding the "pitch has been thrown" issue.

The fact is that the player advanced during the dead ball and is standing on a base to which the runner is not entitled.

Technically, this is not a violation of the LBR (LBR does not use the word "entitled"), but the rule immediately before that (in ASA 8-7-S, commonly called "leaving early") - but the rule actually says nothing about "leaving".

Quote:

THE RUNNER IS OUT When the runner fails to keep contact with the base to which the runner is entitled until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand.

Why could not this rule be used in #1 and #2?

Andy · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 12, 2005, 02:03pm

Well, if this ever happens, there have to be several people asleep...umpires, defensive coaches and players, fans,..etc. I would expect somebody to pick up on this.

Purely my opinion, since I don't have rulebooks right here to refer to, but I think if any pitches have been thrown to the same batter that originally hit the foul ball and nothing has happened, ie no hits, passed balls or wild pitches, I would move the runner back to first base and play on.

If something had happened as in #2 or #3, play stands. I think this falls in the "can't unring the bell" category, because there is no way that you could go back in time and recreate what might have happened.

Rachel · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 12, 2005, 03:34pm

Andy + JEL's answer was the one that the other umpire gave in answer to his question. Although there is nothing in the book to move the runner back there was no change in status of the runner since the last pitch. This needs to be addressed in the rule book as there is nothing that covers this situation.

[Edited by Rachel on Apr 12th, 2005 at 04:45 PM]

mcrowder · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 12, 2005, 04:24pm

There are hundreds of potentially unforeseen instances that could occur in a softball game that are not specifically addressed in the book. Occasionally, we'll find one where there is equal support for contradictory resolutions in the rulebook - and on THOSE, I agree, a rule needs to be written to address it.

But in most cases (like this one), the common sense answer of 90% of the umpires out there will be the same. If we rewrote the book to cover ALL of those instances, it would read like a legal document, and be twice it's current length.

Instead, use 9.01c to cover your minor holes where common sense is, in fact, common. Like this one.