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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 05:16pm
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 05:27pm
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OK, what I said was straight from the rule book: Rule 5 - Section 5 "2. A runner being put out by a tag or live ball appeal play prior to the lead runner touching home plate." I do, however, see your point and concern. So, how's this version? "I'm sorry coach, the runner scored before the tag out, which was unforced and clearly the 3rd out. The rules are very clear that if the 3rd out of an inning is on an unforced tag play, all runs scoring prior to that tag will stand." Makes me think we should have the rule book ammended. Thanks for the heads up though, this might spare me from some serious indegestion in the future. lol [Edited by Alameda on Apr 9th, 2005 at 06:38 PM]
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**Rookie eager to learn!** "I call it like I see it." |
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 05:59pm
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Doesn't anybody read the rule book? (Just kidding)
POE#1 APPEALS M. Fourth Out Appeal. (2005, page 133) An appeal may be made after the third out as long as it is made properly. The play described in the original post is a proper live ball appeal. (wait, keep reading, same page, but go up to letter...) J. Force Out. If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out. So, my conclusion A.) putting these together, the live ball appeal at 1B is allowed as the "fourth", or new third out, and thus the force at 1B neagates the run. Or is it conclusion B.) Does the third out made by F6 on the runner in the rundown eliminate the force on the BR, and thus, the appeal is no longer a force out, and the run does score? I go with my "A" conclusion. Run does not score. Good question and making us think, Mike. |
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 06:29pm
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The run does not score. As long as the play is continuous, ASA will allow the defense to stop the run from scoring by putting out a runner at 1B even after a tag had been made previously for a third out during that play. What would not be acceptable in this scenario is a defense who, after all play is obviously over, wants to appeal the BR not touching 1B.
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The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball. |
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 06:56pm
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F!
lol OK mike, could ya lay this sucker out for me with references, please? I don't want to get this wrong out there. THanks.
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**Rookie eager to learn!** "I call it like I see it." |
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 07:12pm
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POE 1 has all the info you need to rule on this one IMO Think of it this way, a force play is really nothing more than a live ball appeal, the runner has to go to the base and the defense is appealing they made the out. tcannizzo, That's my "hooey" |
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 07:34pm
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POE - 1
J. Force Out. If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a forced out, no runs would score if it was the third out. If a forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had first occupied, the force play is reinstated and he may again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced. If the batte-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs. On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is make, not when the infraction occurred. M. Fourth Out Appeal. An appeal may be made after the third out as long as it is made properly. (e.g., One out with runner on first and third. The batter hits a fly ball that is caught. Each runner leaves his base before the caught ball is touched. An appeal is made at first base for the third out. THe defensive team then makes an appeal at third base before the infielders leave the infield. The runner on third would then be declared out also, and the run would not count. --------------------------------------------- I'm sorry I just don't see where this situation is addressed in those references. I'm not trying to be hard headed, I just want to understand this so I can get it right. Please elaborate. Thanks Jel and co.
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**Rookie eager to learn!** "I call it like I see it." |
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 08:41pm
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No need to apologize for being hard headed, you obviously want to understand. While what you are looking for may not be spelled out, you can use the rules and reasoning to get "the spirit of the rule" .
My contention is the BR being thrown out at first is an appeal play. If a runner leaves 1B early on a fly ball to right which is caught, and is thrown out at 1B this is a "live ball appeal". Why was the runner out? because she was "forced" to return to 1B, and the defense properly executed a play on her. If another runner had crossed the plate, and this was the third out, that run would not score. I doubt anyone will argue that. What is the difference then in the BR being "forced" to touch 1B? The defense makes a proper appeal by making a play, and thus you have the 4th out negating the run. The way the rule is written may be misleading if you let it, (such as the D3K rule which allows a runner to run on a D3K with 2 outs, only if 1B is occupied, if the base is open and two outs, well...). I believe the intent of the rule (5-5, and POE 1-J) is to judge when a run scores on a "timing play" rather than to allow a run to score in this instance. Also, not that this would make it right or wrong, but if you were to disallow the run on the field, I doubt there would be any arguement whatsoever. If you declared "run scores"........... |
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 08:45pm
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Alameda, Here is my understanding. Third out is made on the tag. But the 'fourth out' has further consequences so it is allowed. (The 'appeal' is that the defense is appealing the batter runner had not reach first yet.) I have seen elsewhere that the scoring sections will discuss the "defense choosing the more advantageous third out." In this example, the official scorer would ignore the third out made on the tag, and record for the third out the play that was more advantageous for the defense. (I do not know if the ASA rule book does or does not discuss how this should be scored.)
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Dan |
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 08:56pm
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I understand the idea and application of the 4th out appeal. But how do I know that the defense is appealing? On a missed base or leaving early situation it's generally conceeded as common knowledge that a throw back to that base is an appeal. But on this one I'd need to hear something verbal from someone. What's the level of play? 12U rec or 18U club team? I could easily see some kids not knowing what the out count was and throwing over to first with no appeal in mind. Am I awarding them for being lucky of for being smart?
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 09:00pm
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Hmmm, I'm still a little lost. But unless someone can rebuke these last few posts, I should start tappin bigdawg on the shoulder and see if he has any crow left for me.
LOL. I'll sit on this and see if my brain can digest it after I get some dinner in me! =) ***Edit: I posted this before I saw Little Jimmy's post. I still have life!!! hehe. [Edited by Alameda on Apr 9th, 2005 at 10:03 PM]
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**Rookie eager to learn!** "I call it like I see it." |
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 09:07pm
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Sat Apr 09, 2005, 09:22pm
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Ok, The part that I don't jive with is the example in the POE is on a play where the offense commited an offense...no punn intended :/ (i.e. leaving the bag early...thus giving reason for appeal)
In mike's senerio, the offense did nothing wrong. Really the defense did nothing wrong either, just dumb, IMO. And I also don't really see where it says you can arbitrarily ignore the tag out made on R2. (at least we are narrowing down the foggy area between us lol)
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**Rookie eager to learn!** "I call it like I see it." |
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