What's The Call?

[rhsc]

Originally posted by tcannizzo
This is an offensive play. Killing it too quickly would penalize the offense. R3 is "in play" while she is standing on the base. Protected against the LBR, but definitley still in play.

If this play is executed by the offense, all hell will be breaking looose on the field. The pitcher just might be getting several verbal instructions from the bench as well as players. I would probably wait until it all settled down, and we knew for sure there would be no play. Might seem like an eternity, but chances are pitcher will get the ball over to 2B.

The offense might have tipped off the UIC that they had this play in their playbook, and not to be surprised if it happened and certainly make sure that the blues didn't call an out.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. If you(the official) wait too long, the B/R may split and possibly score; if you act too fast you dont give them a chance to make the out. Hmm.

[Dakota]

What he was saying was that this was probably a set play, not a baserunning mistake. I've had it used in games that I was umpiring. The intent is to cause chaos in the defense and allow R1 to score.

You need to make a judgment as to when the "play" (such as it is) is over. This will be when it is clear the defense is not going to be snookered.

It is not so much a matter of allowing the right amount of time to pass as it is allowing the playing action to cease.

[rhsc]

Originally posted by Dakota

You need to make a judgment as to when the "play" (such as it is) is over. This will be when it is clear the defense is not going to be snookered.

It is not so much a matter of allowing the right amount of time to pass as it is allowing the playing action to cease.

Agree..there just doesnt seem to be a way this wont be a bad call from one of the teams. That cant be a reason not to make the call, though.

[Bandit]

ASA Case Play 8.8-66 page 99 of the 2005-06 Case Book (yes you put the runner back).....NFHS Case Play 8.3.3 Situation B page 50 of the 2005 NFHS Softball Case Book..With R1 on third, R2 on second and R3 on first, R3 legally steals second but R2 does not advance. The pitcher receives the ball in the circle from the catcher and makes no play on any runner. May both runners remain at second? RULING : No. The umpire, after allowing a reasonable amount of time for a play to be made, shall declare the ball dead and call R3 out. College....haven't found that one yet.....I'd be interested to see what Kevin Ryan thought of this difference ?

[AtlUmpSteve]

"I'd be interested to see what Kevin Ryan thought of this difference?"

In this case, while he should dislike the difference, I just can't see any defense to calling the runner out. The LBR just doesn't apply to a runner staying in contact with a base, even if you think they aren't entitled to it. That same argument would make a LBR call required on a missed base or left too early without an appeal! Two runners on a base doesn't apply, since the rule states the remedy is to tag both runners (which the defense is refusing to do). The defense has remedies, which it has chosen to refuse, in fear a run might score during the play.

If the defensive coach wants an out, he/she needs to coach the team how to get that out, without giving up a run. You aren't helping the offense by returning the runner; you are following the only reasonable interpretation (as decided BEFORE it was first put in this year's casebook).

Maybe the question should be placed to Mary Struckoff how she justifies the FED ruling, instead?

[Steve M]

Speaking ASA.

Steve M already gave you the answer. Case Play 8.8-66.
__________________
Tom

thanks, Tom. I knew I'd seen that as a case book play.

Now, for Fed ball - handle it the same way. This is not listed in last year's rules differences (trusting my memory again) and is not a rule change for this year, so - treat it the same.

[Bandit]

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve
That same argument would make a LBR call required on a missed base or left too early without an appeal!

How do you connect LBR to "missed base" &/or "left too early" ? "Left too Early" on the pitch is not an appeal. It is a dead ball, call the runner out. When speaking about leaving on a fly ball or missing a base these actions happen only on a hit ball. How could you ever apply a LBR which happens inbetween pitchs?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Bandit

How do you connect LBR to "missed base" &/or "left too early" ? "Left too Early" on the pitch is not an appeal. It is a dead ball, call the runner out. When speaking about leaving on a fly ball or missing a base these actions happen only on a hit ball. How could you ever apply a LBR which happens inbetween pitchs?

Simple. Steve is responding to calling the runner out for not being on the right base. As Steve points out, if that is the reason for ruling the runner out via the LBR, would it not be true had a runner missed a base or left too soon? After all, those runners are not on the correct base either.

[rhsc]

[i]
Simple. Steve is responding to calling the runner out for not being on the right base. As Steve points out, if that is the reason for ruling the runner out via the LBR, would it not be true had a runner missed a base or left too soon? After all, those runners are not on the correct base either.

[/B]

You are like a bull-dozer clearing the way and makin it straight for all us newer guys..thanks.

[HM1 Hammonds]

Here is food for thought....
R3 is not entitled to 2B. As a result of LBR, R1 and R2 committed to their respective entitled base. R3 is obligated to return to 1B in a reasonable time period. R3 is called out and play resumes.
R3 can not legally advance on the play as described and Rule 8.7T can be enforced.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by HM1 Hammonds
Here is food for thought....
R3 is not entitled to 2B. As a result of LBR, R1 and R2 committed to their respective entitled base. R3 is obligated to return to 1B in a reasonable time period. R3 is called out and play resumes.
R3 can not legally advance on the play as described and Rule 8.7T can be enforced.

Speaking ASA.

#1. Please show me in 8.7.T where is says the runner must be on THE base to which they are entitled.

#2. Rule 8.3 states that when two runners occupy the same base, the runner not entitled is out when touched with the ball. Therefore, to put the runner out, the defense must tag them off the base to which they ARE entitled. However, to do so, would constitute a play on the runner.

#3. Casebook 8.8.66 supports calling time and returning the runner to 1B.

[HM1 Hammonds]

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B - less than 2 outs.

R3 takes off on the pitch and goes to 2B while F2 returns ball to F1.

We now have R2 on 2B with R3 also on 2B with the ball in the circle.

LBR not in effect because no runners are off a base. True or False?

The only way to resolve this is for the defense to make a play at 2B and tag R1. True or False?



8.7T(1) When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has control of the ball within an eight foot radius of the pitchers plate, the runner may stop once, but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base.

8.3B When a runner or batter-runner acquires the right to a base by touching it before being put out, the runner or batter-runner is entitled to hold the base until legally touching the next base in order or is forced to vacate it for a suceeding runner.


In this instance, the B-R did not acquire the right to 2B. She could not steal 2B as it was occupied so she was obligated to return to 1B. 8.7T(2)does say that the runner must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base. The LBR is in effect since she off 1B. I may have used the term "entitled" incorrectly in this case. My apologies to all.

Can the R3 legally occupy 2B? She can't "occupy" 2B because she was not forced to vacate 1B. R2 is not "forced" to vacate 2B. Seems to me that if R3 does not make an "immediate" move to return to 1B then that runner can be called out.

How can I get a copy of the ASA casebook? I would like to read through it. What rules support calling time and returning R3 to 1B?

[whiskers_ump]

You can call ASA Proprties in OK City 73111 [1-800-654-8337]

glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by HM1 Hammonds
R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B - less than 2 outs.

R3 takes off on the pitch and goes to 2B while F2 returns ball to F1.

We now have R2 on 2B with R3 also on 2B with the ball in the circle.

LBR not in effect because no runners are off a base. True or False?

Of course, it is in effect. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The only way to resolve this is for the defense to make a play at 2B and tag R1. True or False?

No, the defense has the option to make no play.

8.7T(1) When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has control of the ball within an eight foot radius of the pitchers plate, the runner may stop once, but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base.

8.3B When a runner or batter-runner acquires the right to a base by touching it before being put out, the runner or batter-runner is entitled to hold the base until legally touching the next base in order or is forced to vacate it for a suceeding runner.


In this instance, the B-R did not acquire the right to 2B.

Awfully hard for there to be a BR when the ball was not put into play.

She could not steal 2B as it was occupied so she was obligated to return to 1B. 8.7T(2)does say that the runner must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base. The LBR is in effect since she off 1B. I may have used the term "entitled" incorrectly in this case. My apologies to all.

Can the R3 legally occupy 2B? She can't "occupy" 2B because she was not forced to vacate 1B. R2 is not "forced" to vacate 2B. Seems to me that if R3 does not make an "immediate" move to return to 1B then that runner can be called out.

If R3 makes a move to return to 1B, then she would be out in accordance with the LBR.

How can I get a copy of the ASA casebook? I would like to read through it. What rules support calling time and returning R3 to 1B?

See post above.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by HM1 Hammonds
LBR not in effect because no runners are off a base. True or False?

False. Read the conditions for the rule being in effect.

Originally posted by HM1 Hammonds
The only way to resolve this is for the defense to make a play at 2B and tag R1. True or False?

False.

Originally posted by HM1 Hammonds
8.7T(1) When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has control of the ball within an eight foot radius of the pitchers plate, the runner may stop once, but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base.

8.3B When a runner or batter-runner acquires the right to a base by touching it before being put out, the runner or batter-runner is entitled to hold the base until legally touching the next base in order or is forced to vacate it for a suceeding runner.


In this instance, the B-R (sic) ... I think you meant R3? did not acquire the right to 2B. She could not steal 2B as it was occupied so she was obligated to return to 1B.

Not true. She is in jeopardy of being put out, but she may choose to stay right there until the defense acts.

Originally posted by HM1 Hammonds
8.7T(2)does say that the runner must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base.

I assume you meant 8.7T(1), but since you brought up (2), what does it say? It says "Once the runner stops at a base for any reason hmmm... says nothing about being eititled to the base. The whole LBR refers to the bases this way. If the runner is on a base...

Originally posted by HM1 Hammonds
Can the R3 legally occupy 2B? She can't "occupy" 2B because she was not forced to vacate 1B. R2 is not "forced" to vacate 2B. Seems to me that if R3 does not make an "immediate" move to return to 1B then that runner can be called out.

Rule citation, please?