Your view please

[debeau]

Runner on one 1 out .
Hit to the shallow outfield which is caught . Runner has lead off before the ball is caught .
The ball is thrown back to 1st base before the runner returns and the fielders run into the dugout .
Any problems here ?
Think carefully .
ISF rules .

[rhsc]

Im not ISF, ASA, but BR isnt forced-out after the catch.

[greymule]

OK, let's see.

Nobody actually appeals, so the ump makes no call.

The fielders, thinking there's an obvious out, enter the dugout.

The runner runs around the bases to score.

The fielders have all left the field, so it's too late to appeal. However, they still have to return to the field since there's only 2 outs.

Did I get it??

[JEL]

Originally posted by debeau
Runner on one 1 out .
Hit to the shallow outfield which is caught . Runner has lead off before the ball is caught .
The ball is thrown back to 1st base before the runner returns and the fielders run into the dugout .
Any problems here ?
Think carefully .
ISF rules .

If I'm reading correctly, R1 on 1B, one out is the sitch. Hit to shallow outfield "which is caught" = fly ball, out #2. R1 was off base before tagging up, ball returned to 1B before runner returns = live ball appeal = 3rd out.

Sounds simple to me, maybe I'm missing something in what you are asking.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by debeau
Runner on one 1 out .
Hit to the shallow outfield which is caught . Runner has lead off before the ball is caught .
The ball is thrown back to 1st base before the runner returns and the fielders run into the dugout .
Any problems here ?
Think carefully .
ISF rules .

Not as long as the defense properly executed the live ball appeal at 1B.

[Antonella]

The only problem to me seems the word "caught".
The runner may (legally) advance when the ball is first TOUCHED by the outfielder.

Did you mean this?

A.

[Just Curious]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
[B]

Originally posted by debeau

Not as long as the defense properly executed the live ball appeal at 1B.

Why would there be a live ball appeal at 1st?? Isn't it an automatic respeonse? Or maybe a better question would be... what would the mechanics be for a live ball appeal?

[WestMichBlue]

"Nobody actually appeals, so the ump makes no call."

Live ball, non-verbal appeal. Action of runner trying to get back and throw to 1B should be visual indication of appeal.

Like others, I have three outs; defenders to dugout.

WMB

[debeau]

Interesting response.
And similar veins to here in NZ
Whats an appeal ? ( A seperate thread of discussion )
A play which an umpire cannot rule on until requested to do so by a manager player coach .
In my view it doesnt have to be verbal , a look or holding the ball up is enough but it has to be indicated .
Simply throwing the ball back is not enough .
This is actually what I am getting at .
Yes it is an appeal play ( for some reason a lot of umpires called it out automatically over here until I chalenged their reasoning. Their answer was the act of throwing it back was enough )Lets be honest , most players wouldnt have had a clue that this was a appeal play .(Obviously neither do some umpires in NZ )
In this forum you did.
Antonella-- Too true and I did think about putting first touched but thought it may confuse and it is not important here .

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by debeau

Interesting response.
And similar veins to here in NZ
Whats an appeal ? ( A seperate thread of discussion )
A play which an umpire cannot rule on until requested to do so by a manager player coach .
In my view it doesnt have to be verbal , a look or holding the ball up is enough but it has to be indicated .
Simply throwing the ball back is not enough .
This is actually what I am getting at .
Yes it is an appeal play ( for some reason a lot of umpires called it out automatically over here until I chalenged their reasoning. Their answer was the act of throwing it back was enough )Lets be honest , most players wouldnt have had a clue that this was a appeal play .(Obviously neither do some umpires in NZ )
In this forum you did.
Antonella-- Too true and I did think about putting first touched but thought it may confuse and it is not important here .

A look or holding the ball is not an appeal without some indication (as you noted) of why the defender is taking that action.

As far as a throw back to a base left too soon, that is a valid appeal. If you want verbal, trust me, someone on that field has already screamed, "throw it to first, he left too soon!" If an umpire cannot figure out that this is an appeal, they may be on the wrong field.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by debeau

Whats an appeal ? ( A seperate thread of discussion )
A play which an umpire cannot rule on until requested to do so by a manager player coach .
In my view it doesnt have to be verbal , a look or holding the ball up is enough but it has to be indicated .

Simply throwing the ball back is not enough .

Yes it is an appeal play ( for some reason a lot of umpires called it out automatically over here until I chalenged their reasoning. Their answer was the act of throwing it back was enough )

You seem to be arguing both sides of this discussion???

Throwing the ball back to 1st is absolutely enough and an umpire should correctly call the out. This is particularly obvious if the runner is attempting to return. (This sounds a lot like everybody knows what is happening except the official.)

Why would the defense throw the ball to 1st if not to appeal the runner leaving too soon?

Now, perhaps if the runner is not returning to 1st, a verbal request by the defense is appropriate. But it should still be obvious to the umpire what is happening... and if they successfully get the ball to 1st and then look to me as if expecting a call, I'm going to make the call even if they don't make a verbal request. There is no other reason for F3 to stand on 1st, catch the ball while tagging the base and then looking to me for an official response...

[debeau]

The players throwing the ball back to the base are doing so because they know the runner had left before the ball was first touched and that the runner cant do this .
I have chatted with numerous players and coaches after the game as to this and all were unaware that it was an appeal .Logically we cant give an out if the players dont know that it is an appeal play even though you think that the act of throwing the ball back is enough .
They all thought it was an automatic out .
No I have never heard a team member yelling throw it back unless the player has gone on to the next base and no I am not deaf
Maybe we need better education of players/ coaches

[rhsc]

Well, I dont about anyone else here, but I learned something...could you tell from my earlier post?

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by debeau
The players throwing the ball back to the base are doing so because they know the runner had left before the ball was first touched and that the runner cant do this .
I have chatted with numerous players and coaches after the game as to this and all were unaware that it was an appeal .Logically we cant give an out if the players dont know that it is an appeal play even though you think that the act of throwing the ball back is enough ....

You are arguing semantics here. They may not be aware that the term for what they are doing is technically an appeal, however, they understand the logic for doing it. This is plain and simply a successful live ball appeal. If you don't award the out, then you are splitting hairs, and for the wrong reason.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by debeau
The players throwing the ball back to the base are doing so because they know the runner had left before the ball was first touched and that the runner cant do this .
I have chatted with numerous players and coaches after the game as to this and all were unaware that it was an appeal .Logically we cant give an out if the players dont know that it is an appeal play even though you think that the act of throwing the ball back is enough .

It seems like last year, or perhaps the year before, we had a long discussion about "inadvertant" appeals. Perhaps you have been confused. What you are saying now (I wouldn't stop at calling it 'semantics,' blatantly) is wrong.

By inadvertant appeal, and I don't remember the words we used, I mean for example:
Fly ball to outfield
Runner leaves early - umpire notices but no one else apparently does (no one says anything)
Ball is caught and thrown back towards the infield
Running action has stopped
First baseman collects the ball and inadvertantly steps on 1st as she throws ball back to pitcher
Umpire screams "Runner is out. She left the base too soon."
Everyone goes "WHAT???"

You are correct if this is the situation you are trying to explain. This is not a proper appeal. The umpire should remain quiet and wait for an appropriate verbal appeal. The players are responsible for knowing the situation. If they don't know, you don't make the call.

But our contention, and it should be yours also, is that if the defensive team is aware of the situation and delivers the ball back to first base because of that awareness, THEY HAVE MADE A PROPER APPEAL. And you should rule on it appropriately. And they show their awareness by intentionally delivering the ball back to 1st or by F3 collecting the ball and standing on 1st and looking to you for the obvious call.

If you stand there and act ignorant, you have a poor game sense. Additionally, by ignoring them you may be dissuading them from even making a proper appeal. They might think you didn't see it and then they won't even make the effort to ask.

If the throw to 1st base is at the same time as the runner is attempting to return, this is absolutely not an appeal play. This is purely a judgement call - did the ball beat the runner, and requires an immediate call.

Hope this helps!