The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 03, 2005, 11:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 994
I had a strange one on Tuesday in a high school game. Two outs and B3 swings at a ball that bounces into the catcher's glove. The catcher rolls the ball back to the pitching circle and the defense leaves the field. B3 walks toward her dugout on first base side as I'm watching her. As she is about one step from the dugout her coach said, "Run to first." She does and since she had never entered the dugout, I ruled her safe.

(Note: she never removed her helment, so I did not have to give a team warning about that.)

Here's the question. What if B3 never entered the dugout before taking her position on defense. At what point should I rule her out. I thought perhaps when she took her position on defense, but was wondering if that was waiting too long if the coach has a little huddle outside the dugout. (Coach's in SC still do this since we have been asked by the high school league office to allow this if it does not delay the game drastically, and to not stictly enforce this year's point of emphasis about no huddles.)

So, I'm interested in your thoughts. When is the batter out if she never enters the dugout?

By the way: yes the defensive coach argued. He never stated that I had it wrong, only that he thought it should never be the home plate umpire's call to rule a dropped third strike, it is always the base umpire's call. He knows this because he use to be an umpire for a long time.
__________________
Dan
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 04, 2005, 07:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally posted by SC Ump
I had a strange one on Tuesday in a high school game. Two outs and B3 swings at a ball that bounces into the catcher's glove. The catcher rolls the ball back to the pitching circle and the defense leaves the field. B3 walks toward her dugout on first base side as I'm watching her. As she is about one step from the dugout her coach said, "Run to first." She does and since she had never entered the dugout, I ruled her safe.

(Note: she never removed her helment, so I did not have to give a team warning about that.)

Here's the question. What if B3 never entered the dugout before taking her position on defense. At what point should I rule her out. I thought perhaps when she took her position on defense, but was wondering if that was waiting too long if the coach has a little huddle outside the dugout. (Coach's in SC still do this since we have been asked by the high school league office to allow this if it does not delay the game drastically, and to not stictly enforce this year's point of emphasis about no huddles.)

So, I'm interested in your thoughts. When is the batter out if she never enters the dugout?

By the way: yes the defensive coach argued. He never stated that I had it wrong, only that he thought it should never be the home plate umpire's call to rule a dropped third strike, it is always the base umpire's call. He knows this because he use to be an umpire for a long time.
As I've said before, umpiring for a long time just means that umpire was umpiring for a long time. Longevity does not equal intelligence and ability.

When he told you that, may you should have suggested he return to some clinic to catch up on the game
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 04, 2005, 10:24am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 55
I guess you could have called her out for leaving the 3 foot base path?

Or would you consider her path that close to the dugout?
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 04, 2005, 11:30am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
Rattlehead, please go read the rule regarding the 3-foot lane. No batter is required to stay in the 3-foot lane. Ever. That lane only comes into play in specific instances, none of which are relevant here.

To answer the initial post, you have an interesting question. I suppose that once someone threw her a glove, when she began approaching the field with her glove, I'd assume she is a defensive player at that point, and has effectively abandoned her chance to go to 1st base.

But I have no rule to back this up.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 04, 2005, 12:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 3,100
To my knowledge, in ASA the point at which the runner loses the right to go to 1B is purely judgment. I've had coaches insist that as soon as the BR takes one step toward the dugout she is out and cannot run to 1B. While the comment about leaving the running lane is of course wrong, I've heard that one, too. Or out of the baseline, or it wasn't an immediate attempt, or [pick your idiocy].

In OBR, this issue is on in the list of items not specifically covered in the rules. It is one of the "100 Problems" with baseball that Rick Roder includes in his book.

I suspect that some MLB ump has opined on the subject.
__________________
greymule
More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men!
Roll Tide!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 04, 2005, 01:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally posted by greymule
To my knowledge, in ASA the point at which the runner loses the right to go to 1B is purely judgment. I've had coaches insist that as soon as the BR takes one step toward the dugout she is out and cannot run to 1B. While the comment about leaving the running lane is of course wrong, I've heard that one, too. Or out of the baseline, or it wasn't an immediate attempt, or [pick your idiocy].

In OBR, this issue is on in the list of items not specifically covered in the rules. It is one of the "100 Problems" with baseball that Rick Roder includes in his book.

I suspect that some MLB ump has opined on the subject.
Good, let him opine some place else, as it isn't worth a **** here.

ASA does not rule people out for abandoning a base, base line, base path or anything else until they have left the field of play, or possibly assisted back toward a base.

Shame on the defense for not knowing how to handle the situation.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 04, 2005, 01:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 3,100
ASA does not rule people out for abandoning a base, base line, base path or anything else until they have left the field of play, or possibly assisted back toward a base.

Such a specific answer is always appreciated: BR is not out until she leaves the field of play or is assisted toward a base. Until one of those occurs, she can advance to 1B after an uncaught strike 3 with 2 out.

So the BR can walk from the batter's box out to left field, accept her glove from a teammate, get into fielding position, and as long as nobody has yet interfered with the ball, run to 1B.

Thanks. I'm glad to know what to call.


__________________
greymule
More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men!
Roll Tide!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 04, 2005, 02:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Little Elm, TX (NW Dallas)
Posts: 4,047
Dang, Mike.

That's twice today you've issued a comment that specifically muddies the waters of the question. Many of us look to you, specifically, as the "guru" of rules, or (at least on this board) the final authority.

You must be having a bad day. This comment doesn't add anything to the discussion or answer the issue at hand, at least not specifically enough.

Are you alluding to (but obviously not simply STATING) the notion that a batter, after a dropped third strike, who nears her dugout (say, for example, the third base dugout), but doesn't enter it, has her first base glove thrown to her by a teammate, trucks across the field to 1st base to begin receiving throws during infield while the pitcher warms up, and then steps on 1st base after, say, the 3rd throw... should be then called "SAFE!!!!" . Or worse - she never touches, then when the other team grounds out and she makes what she thinks is the out at 1st base, you THEN yell, "SAFE!!!" and clear the offense off the field to let them continue batting.

Or even worse, she was the last "out" of the last inning, runs to third to get in line with her teammates, shakes the hands of the other team and touches first after shaking the last hand. "SAFE!!!!"

Yes, this is purposely absurd. But I use it to illustrate the point.

By the rules I see (and reinforced by your one issue-muddying comment), I can't find a true rule for calling her out. At which point during the above sequence do you decide she's out?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 04, 2005, 04:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally posted by mcrowder
Dang, Mike.

That's twice today you've issued a comment that specifically muddies the waters of the question. Many of us look to you, specifically, as the "guru" of rules, or (at least on this board) the final authority.

You must be having a bad day. This comment doesn't add anything to the discussion or answer the issue at hand, at least not specifically enough.

Are you alluding to (but obviously not simply STATING) the notion that a batter, after a dropped third strike, who nears her dugout (say, for example, the third base dugout), but doesn't enter it, has her first base glove thrown to her by a teammate, trucks across the field to 1st base to begin receiving throws during infield while the pitcher warms up, and then steps on 1st base after, say, the 3rd throw... should be then called "SAFE!!!!" . Or worse - she never touches, then when the other team grounds out and she makes what she thinks is the out at 1st base, you THEN yell, "SAFE!!!" and clear the offense off the field to let them continue batting.

Or even worse, she was the last "out" of the last inning, runs to third to get in line with her teammates, shakes the hands of the other team and touches first after shaking the last hand. "SAFE!!!!"

Yes, this is purposely absurd. But I use it to illustrate the point.

By the rules I see (and reinforced by your one issue-muddying comment), I can't find a true rule for calling her out. At which point during the above sequence do you decide she's out?
Please note that this was a HS discussion. If you haven't noticed, I try avoid jumping in Federation-based (assumption, based on majority of HS play)rules discussions unless someone asks for other sanctioning body's rules or interps.

I was responding directly to Greymule as he mentioned ASA and his note of how coaches think of runner's losing their ability to advance to 1st base.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 04, 2005, 04:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally posted by greymule
ASA does not rule people out for abandoning a base, base line, base path or anything else until they have left the field of play, or possibly assisted back toward a base.

Such a specific answer is always appreciated: BR is not out until she leaves the field of play or is assisted toward a base. Until one of those occurs, she can advance to 1B after an uncaught strike 3 with 2 out.

So the BR can walk from the batter's box out to left field, accept her glove from a teammate, get into fielding position, and as long as nobody has yet interfered with the ball, run to 1B.

Thanks. I'm glad to know what to call.
Well, by the book, yes. However, there is one little phrase that you used which will more than likely prevent such a scenario. It is unlikely that the game ball is going to lay there untouched for such a period of time. It's possible, but not likely to happen that often.

In ASA, if you do have something that goofy, you can always use 10.1 as this possible scenario certainly isn't specifically covered within the rules.

__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 11, 2005, 10:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 31
This may sound crazy to the umpires, but a delay in the game should be in order..If anytime during the game that the players delay the game, the umpire can call them out or start calling strikes...So why not in this case...Delay in the game on the batter?????
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2005, 01:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally posted by SC Ump
As she is about one step from the dugout her coach said, "Run to first."
MORE FOOD FOR THOUGHT ON THIS

FED Rule 8-2-4 states that the B/R is out if she fails to advance to first base " and enters the team area" after, among other things, a dropped third strike. I don't know about ASA, but this doesn't say "leaves the field of play" as some have discussed. So, if she is one step from entering the dugout, is she not out for entering the "team area"?

I can find no other reference to "team area" in the book, although "dugout/bench" is mentioned several times. What is the difference? If there is no difference, then why doesn't it say a player must stay in the "team area" if she is ejected or restricted?

If there is a difference, then you never consider what happens if she enters the field to play defense without entering the "dugout/bench' since she entered the "team area" and is out.

Quote:
Shame on the defense for not knowing how to handle the situation.
Shame on the B/R for not knowing the situation also. Why more shame on the defense than the offense???
__________________
NAU
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2005, 09:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 994
Quote:
Originally posted by NorthAlaUmp
" and enters the team area"
Good point. Always in the past when I read 'team area', it was with the thought that some of these schools around here have not yet heard of Title IX, so they have 'dugouts' that are just a 2x12 across some cinder blocks. (Okay... so I'm exaggerating.)

The problem I had here was that I felt the rule was very specific as to a certain situation that had to occur. I will read up more on the case plays offered by NFHS to confirm, but it sounds like this 'officially' gives a little room for discretion.
__________________
Dan
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2005, 02:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,718
"Team area" is the bench or dugout, or the fence and/or chalk line defining these areas.

Using the field in front of these areas is a"push". How much room do you allow?

Bob
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2005, 11:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 964
"I can find no other reference to "team area" in the book"

Both ASA and NFHS say the B-R is out if she enters the "team area."

NFHS defines dugout as the "area reserved for team. . . . "

ASA defines dugout as "team area."

Dugout is also defined at an "out of play area." So I think that we can agree that to enter the team area means to pass through the fence opening, or step into the out of play area.

WMB
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:33pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1