DP/Flex question

[David Emerling]

Donna is the DP and bats 3rd in the lineup

Donna bats and reaches base on a walk.

Felicity, the FLEX, runs for Donna. All very legal and straight forward.

Donna has therefore been removed from the game and has one reentry still available.

When the 3rd spot comes around again, Donna, the original DP, reenters and bats. She reaches base.

Patty pinchruns for Donna. Donna is now removed from the game and Patty is the new DP.

Later in the game, Patty bats and reaches base.

Felicity, the original FLEX, runs for Patty.

* * *

Two questions:

1. Can Felicity legally run for Patty?

2. If so, can Patty reenter as the DP?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[MDblue]

Everything you posted is correct. The FLEX can go in and out for the DP as often as she wants. When the FLEX runs for the DP, the DP has left the game and is allowed the one re-entry. The FLEX has never left the game because a substitute has not been put in for Felicity.

Yes, Patty (the new DP) can have the FLEX run for her, however, she has left the game once, and still has a re-entry left.

[WestMichBlue]

Try to keep separate in your mind the player - and the position.


Donna is the DP and bats 3rd in the lineup

Donna bats and reaches base on a walk.

Felicity, the FLEX, runs for Donna. All very legal and straight forward.

Donna has therefore been removed from the game and has one reentry still available.

Donna, the player is out of the game, and the DP/FLEX positions have been removed and you are now playing with nine.

When the 3rd spot comes around again, Donna, the original DP, reenters and bats. She reaches base.

Donna has re-entered, and the DP/FLEX has been reinstated; you are again playing with 10.

Patty pinchruns for Donna. Donna is now removed from the game and Patty is the new DP.

Later in the game, Patty bats and reaches base.

Felicity, the original FLEX, runs for Patty.

Patty is out of the game and has one re-entry left. The DB/FLEX positions have been removed and you are playing with nine.


As noted by MDblue, all legal.

WMB

[Dakota]

Or, putting it another way, PLAYERS have limited re-entry rights, POSITIONS don't have limits.

A lineup that starts with DP/FLEX can go from 10 to 9 to 10 to 9 to 10 to 9 to 10 to ... as long as there are eligible subs and PLAYER re-entry rights will allow it.

Subs for a DP (or a FLEX) sub into the POSITION of DP (or FLEX), and therefore anything that was legal for the starter is legal for the sub wrt to playing the POSITION.

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

..and just to cover all the bases in your situation,

After Felicity(?? where have you seen a Felicity lately??) has run for Donna, PATTY can bat the next time up,and Donna still has her re-entry rights.....

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE
..and just to cover all the bases in your situation,

After Felicity(?? where have you seen a Felicity lately??) has run for Donna, PATTY can bat the next time up,and Donna still has her re-entry rights.....

I decided to use a bizarre name to get your attention. It worked! [g]

You bring up an interesting point with your last statement.

If things happen as you say, "After Felicity has run for Donna, PATTY can bat the next time up, and Donna still has her re-entry rights...."

If Donna re-enters, could she enter as the FLEX, allowing Patty to continue to bat in the #3 spot?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by David Emerling

I decided to use a bizarre name to get your attention. It worked! [g]

You bring up an interesting point with your last statement.

If things happen as you say, "After Felicity has run for Donna, PATTY can bat the next time up, and Donna still has her re-entry rights...."

If Donna re-enters, could she enter as the FLEX, allowing Patty to continue to bat in the #3 spot?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

No, a player reentering must always reenter at the same position in the batting order. A starter and any sub which assumed that players position in the batting order cannot be in the line-up at the same time.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, a player reentering must always reenter at the same position in the batting order. A starter and any sub which assumed that players position in the batting order cannot be in the line-up at the same time.

But we don't really consider the 10th spot as a "position in the batting order", do we? It's just an administrative "holding area" to acknowledge the fact that there is a 10th player involved in the game. Afterall, the 10th player's "position in the batting order", should she bat, is actually somewhere else.

So, if Donna reenters as the FLEX, isn't her "position in the batting order", should she ultimately bat, still remain as it was originally when she started the game? In the example being discussed, the DP is batting 3rd. That means, any FLEX player would also have to bat in the 3rd spot. So, by reentering as FLEX, Donna isn't really reentering in a different spot in the batting order - is she?

I'm not arguing with you. You are probably right. I'm just pointing out how I could see that somebody COULD interpret Donna's reentering the game as the FLEX to not necessarily violate the principle that reentering players must resume their original spot in the order.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN





[Edited by David Emerling on Jan 20th, 2005 at 04:23 PM]

[mcrowder]

You missed the 2nd part. A starter and the sub that took her place cannot be in the lineup at the same time.

[Steve M]

David,
There's another couple of limitations to remember - the starting DP may never play just defense AND the starting FLEX may never play just offense.

In your example, Donna - if she is in the game - must play offense, is locked into that particular slot in the batting order, and may play defense for any other player. Felicity - if she is in the game - must play defense and may play offense for Donna.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Steve M
David,
There's another couple of limitations to remember - the starting DP may never play just defense AND the starting FLEX may never play just offense.

In your example, Donna - if she is in the game - must play offense, is locked into that particular slot in the batting order, and may play defense for any other player. Felicity - if she is in the game - must play defense and may play offense for Donna.

That's a good explanation. Thanks, Steve!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

Wait a minute, something just occurred to me with regards to all the DP/FLEX stuff.

This is more of a general question and does not necessarily pertain the original situation as posted.

Let's say there are 10 active players currently in the game. It's the DP's turn to bat. The offensive coach brings a player off the bench to bat for the DP.

Typically, we would expect that the new hitter is now assuming the "position" of DP.

But! What if the manager's REAL intent is that the batter is actually substituting for the FLEX, who is *now* batting for the DP. That would reduce the number of active players to 9.

This would seem have some important ramifications if done in this manner. This would allow this new batter to LATER assume the role of FLEX, since, that is actually how they entered the game ... as FLEX, not a DP.

Example:

Donna is the original DP

Felicity is the original FLEX

It is Donna's turn to bat. The coach sends Patty to the plate and claims that Patty is replacing Felicity as the FLEX *and* that he is now exercising is option for the FLEX to bat for the DP. So, Patty's original entrance into the game was actually that of a FLEX!

So, later in the game, Donna can re-enter into her original spot in the batting order, as the DP, and Patty can also stay in the game as the FLEX. Is this legal?

I think I'm getting a headache.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by David Emerling


But we don't really consider the 10th spot as a "position in the batting order", do we? It's just an administrative "holding area" to acknowledge the fact that there is a 10th player involved in the game. Afterall, the 10th player's "position in the batting order", should she bat, is actually somewhere else.

You noted that Donna was the DP. You noted that Patty was a sub in the DP slot. The DP can never be in the Flex position.

Donna and Patty cannot be in the game at the same time.

ASA 4.3.C

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

You noted that Donna was the DP. You noted that Patty was a sub in the DP slot. The DP can never be in the Flex position.

Donna and Patty cannot be in the game at the same time.

ASA 4.3.C

Batting in the DP spot in the lineup does *not* necessarily make you the DP. That is evident by the fact that the FLEX can bat in the DP's spot. That doesn't make the FLEX the DP, does it?

So, again, if a substitute bats in the DP's spot, isn't it possible that the batter is actually substituting for the FLEX and *then* immediately batting in the DP's spot?

Let's say that just prior to Donna batting, the defensive coach goes up to the umpire and makes a lineup change. Patty is substituting for Felicity. Therefore, Patty is the new FLEX.

Fine.

But now it's Donna's turn to bat. The coach NOW exercises his option for the FLEX to bat for the DP. That means Patty gets to bat. And Patty was the FLEX.

So why can't Donna later return as the DP?

It seems all the provisions are adhered to.

Donna is returning to the SAME spot in the lineup. She is also returning into the SAME position ... DP.

Patty, who originally entered the game as a FLEX, can now resume her previous position as FLEX and go into the 10th spot in the lineup, thus allowing her to continue to play defense.

This is illegal?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Jan 20th, 2005 at 05:35 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Is that the wind in my face?

I better turn toward the opposite direction!