Nice to know the crow hop controversy goes on everywhere...

(This link was posted in the latest pi--ing contest on the eteamz coach's board)

Crow hop article.

Tom,
You really trying to start something, huh?

So....is an illegal dive still a delayed dead ball? :rolleyes:

Well, maybe! But actually, I just thought it was very funny that almost the same argument is being made in a completely different sport about officials turning an intentional "blind eye" to an infraction called a "crow hop."

A good friend of mine says they NEVER call them for leaping.

If you do not call the "Hop" please do not work a game with me. I WILL call it on the first pitch or the last.

IMHO if we continue to turn a blind eye to this, or any rule violation; WE are cheating. Either enforce ALL the rules each day or burn your shirts.

( I have singed a few ... Learned my lessons the hard way. )

Regards,

John

crow hop
 

I dont have a problem calling the crow hop,however if the pivot foot comes down either vertical or with the toes slightly pointed slightly backwards,and the ball has been released without replanting the pivot foot,what is the proper call? The pitcher leaped,however released the ball without replanting.

Re: crow hop
 

Sounds to me like you just about gave the textbook definition of an illegal pitch,

is it mandatory that the pivot foot remains in contact with the rubber until the pitch is released? the foot is either going to go up or forward.

also,we are now discussing leaping,not to be confused with crow-hopping.crow-hopping being replanting the pivot foot in order to push off again,at a closer distance than the rubber.i call the crow-hop every time i see it,but around here the coaches seem to teach them not to crow-hop,however leaping(slightly)seeems more common,especially in 12u and 14u

Roger,

Welcome to the board.http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/...wen/newbie.gif

I think you were the one who mentioned leaping.

Speaking ASA,

If the pitcher is a female, she must maintain contact with the pitcher's plate or drag away with the pivot foot remaining in contact with the ground, just like it states in the rule book.

If the pitcher is a male, he may leap without penalty as long as the toes of the pivot foot remain pointing down.

In no case may any pitcher replant prior to releasing the pitch.

leaping
 

Thank you Mike,it is girls,and i will start calling it! roger

Crow Hop, Leap, etc
 

Worked a Men's state tournament (D level, so no national) and the UIC made this statement: "There will be no illegal pitches thrown this weekend." When asked what he meant, he said, "there will be no illegal pitches thrown this weekend." Enough Said. (I called none...because I saw none, right!) :)

Leaping is one thing a lot of coaches don't understand, or claim to understand. They don't see it as an advantage, but it is. So if I see it, I call it.

Not going to get into the scenarios of when it should NOT be called, but I definitely have opinions about that! ;)

[Edited by FUBLUE on Dec 29th, 2004 at 02:03 PM]

I guess maybe he just didnt want to deal with the arguments that will surely follow,i dont necessarily agree with that,but hes the uic so i would have done exactly what you did!

The reasoning is solid...men's ball in this state is played at a higher level (most teams are A or Major, a few B and C). What they are trying to do is develop younger teams, younger pitchers (those throwing in the state were either mid/late 40's or mid/late 20's). So, let them learn how to throw strikes HOWEVER they want, and when they get to the upper levels (B, A, Major) they can "adjust to the legal way" and will not be as frustrated as they could have been trying to; A. learn how to throw strikes, B. how to throw legal.

Same holds true (to me) about girls learning to pitch. A very successful pitching coach in my area teaches a leap, then takes it away once pitcher learns how to throw strikes with speed. He teaches a crow hop. He teaches all kinds of "technicalities" against pitching legally...but he eventually takes them away so that by State Tournament time, the girls are legal.

I'm not saying let the girls pitch illegal all the time, but most opposing coaches don't care how the girls throw the ball, just that they are throwing it underhand towards the plate.

A story: I had a game last season where one pitcher was doing about three things way wrong. Opposing coach politely asks me to do something, so inning by inning I spend about 10 seconds reminding the girl what to do to correct herself. By the end of the game, she was throwing just as hard, just as accurate as she was when she was illegal. She was actually more accurate, and the opposing coaches team was having problems hitting her for an inning or so. It was a JV game, so I was able to "get away with more teaching." Varsity level, well, I'm not sure what I would have done.

Thats a very educational posting (for me especially),would it be best to bring up (leaping) at the pre-game meeting and explaining it clearly and quickly to the opposing coaches from the start?

I doubt I would do it. I would wait until it was a "good time" to talk to the coaches individually and let them know how we are going to handle the situation. Some coaches won't even say a thing about the leap/crow-hop, etc. Those that do, let them know you see it and let them know that you've take care of it after it happens.

Why? Is leaping a ground rule in your area?

umps & fear of calling leap/crowhopping, why?
 

Why Irish, since you're a senior ump, aren't the umps mandated to call the illegal pitches, or not be allowed to ump, since they are condoning cheating? It's said here, "We(umps) see with our eyes(closed ones?). Parents/fans see with their hearts." How true is that,& why is this allowed? Even CatO. was leaping/hopping, as pointed out by L.Fernandez on live ESPN TV,"Oops that was a hop",& it wasn't called!? Please Help!

Re: umps & fear of calling leap/crowhopping, why?
 

Please show me where I made any statement like that

Quote:

It's said here, "We(umps) see with our eyes(closed ones?). Parents/fans see with their hearts." How true is that,& why is this allowed? Even CatO. was leaping/hopping, as pointed out by L.Fernandez on live ESPN TV,"Oops that was a hop",& it wasn't called!? Please Help!

To what game are you referring?

As an umpire, you watch and don't watch what the UIC indicates. Unless I'm privy to that information first hand, I'm not crucifying an umpire for not making an IP call.

Lisa Fernandez was no saint on the plate either, though her style is nothing like Cat's. When Cat first started at UT, it took slow-motion replay to see the replant.

It's a whole different story when you have nothing else to do but watch the pitcher's feet via an electronic transmission using different angles than the umpire is permitted. Personally, I don't know how anyone can take anything that comes from the talking heads during an ESPN softball broadcast seriously.

Re: umps & fear of calling leap/crowhopping, why?
 

One of my good friends, who is also a good young umpire, uses the "We see with our eyes. Parents/fans see with their hearts." No, he doesn't see with closed ones.

I would hope that you are using your time watching ESPN or whoever else to become a student of the game. Unfortunately, we don't see a lot of umpiring "stuff" on there (unless they do something bad, then we see it...).

I'm not certain, but I would bet Lisa Fernandez has never attended an umpiring clinic. Depending upon Lisa to make an IP call would be similar to letting Tim McCarver umpire the World Series. Don't depend on what you hear from folks on TV.

If you have questions about what does and doesn't constitute an IP, ask your local UIC. That is what your UIC is for.

And you can bet dollars to donuts that if Cat was illegal, they would have been calling it.

I have to disagree with you John
 

Your "good, young umpire" friend always has his eyes closed. ;) J/K

But seriously, I'm not so sure that they would call her, or any other NCAA pitcher for IP. I watched as much of the College World Series as I could and saw IPs in every game (mostly leaps), but I give you 1 guess on how many times I saw it called. That's right - a big, fat gooseegg, nada, zip, zilch.

By the book, many college pitchers have an illegal motion. In addition to a leap, some have a fairly obvious replant and second push that they use on occasion. Cat O, who takes the brunt of the web board bashing, has a very skillful and difficult to see in real time, but obvious in still photos, leap/replant. But she is far from alone.

JMO, but she gets the criticism because she is such an outstanding pitcher who had the temerity to not pitch for a Pac-10 college, instead pitching for a UT team that without her would be mediocre. With her, they are a contender in the WCWS (in case you were wondering, Mike, that stands for Women's College <font size=5>World</font> Series!) :D

But, I digress...

Getting back to the main point. If many college pitchers have a motion that is illegal by the book, and yet it is not being called, why is that?

It is not some umpire conspiracy. It is not evidence of umpire cowardace. It is, in fact, (I believe) evidence of umpires doing their job. IOW, the NCAA does not want these motions called illegal. It is their game, their rules, their instructions to umpires.

I know that is a tough argument to make on eteamz, with the Sam's of the world and that nut from Nebraska around, but (speaking as someone who does not call college, but basing this on many of the umpires I know who do), I beleive this to be the truth.

Tom,

Not arguing with you, but if it is in the book as illegal, then why would they not remove it from the book if the NCAA doesn't want it called? I don't have an opinion either way (should it be in the book or not), but if it is there, it is foolish to direct NCAA umpires to not call the rule. Do you agree?

The rules are written in the book to provide the format for the game. The NCAA never will come out and say to NOT call the rules as written. What they do say, and mean for the umpires to understand, is that fine-line distinctions that are so close to legal as to require slow motion or stop action photography to discern legality should NOT be called.

Crow hops and leaping are illegal pitches; and when clearly observed, they should and must be called, even in NCAA championship play. These should, if called, be black and white, and clearly obvious, so that consistency in interpretation and enforcement is achieved. If there is any doubt, then the pitch is to be considered legal.

That is my understanding; I can't speak for the NCAA Umpire Development Program.

I would guess that the rule is kept in place to put the lid on EXTREME abuses of the pitching rules.

Can you imagine what we might see if the rule was stricken from the books? With no restriction at all, a pitcher could start her move from the plate with something resembling a standing broad competition. She could fling herself ten feet forward from the rubber, then deliver her pitch.

Contrast that with what Cat does, which involves the pivot foot getting a couple of inches above the ground (sometimes- she looked pretty good and legal during the World Cup telecasts this summer) and can usually only be detected on slo-mo instant replay.

In other words, men's fastpitch

Thanks... that's pretty much what I was trying to say. You said it better.

Re: I have to disagree with you John
 

I only have my eyes closed when I'm working with you. Usually my closed eyes are accompanied with a slight head shaking ... as if to say "I can't believe he called that."

;)

bkbjones: "In other words, men's fastpitch"

No, the crowhop is still illegal in men's FP.

I downloaded IP training video clips from the NFHS web site; one of which uses a male coach to demonstrate the crow hop. Now this is a major league crow hop!

He takes a big step back with his stride foot; shift his weight back and lifts the pivot foot off the plate. He then drives forward with his stride foot and lands the pivot foot at least 3' in front of the plate. Then his hands part and he goes into his pitching motion. I think there is even a Leap after that as his pivot foot again leaves the ground before going into the drag. His delivery is well past the 8' circle.

IMO, a crow hop is the replanting of the pivot foot closer to home before the pitching motion starts. (This is what ASA and NFHS tells it's umpires to look for in their POE's on IP's.) Those that keep finding something devious in the action of the pivot foot at the end of the drag are wrong IMO. If the pivot foot does dig into the ground at the end of the drag and helps the pitcher achieve the final push and to close her hips, then that is simply part of a good pitching motion.

WMB

And that is why, right up there where the original quote is, there is a big wink. That comment about men's fastpitch was not meant to be taken seriously.

Speaking of men's ball, one of the organizations I work has an international men's league, and anything goes there as far as pitching goes. They've got some Canadians, some from New Zealand, I've seen them from Australia, and there are even some Americans. Their thought being you throw your best underhand pitch, any way you want. If I hit it, great for me. If you throw it past me, great for you. Some use a hop, just about all leap, and all lift the pivot foot off the rubber on their rocker step. And these guys have some great games. I was leary about joining this group, as I typically call the illegal pitch, but now I look forward to their weekends.

Re: Re: umps & fear of calling leap/crowhopping, why?
 

Sorry ump, but Cat was most definately ILLEGAL and as to Fernandez doing the commentary, who better to point out an illegal pitch, crow-hop/leap,than a pitcher? Come on now!! Cat Osterhopper is her nickname now, how embarassing! Umps, have the guts to call all illegal pitches!! You'll be helpinh the player as well as the sport of softball! PERIOD! Thanks!

Welcome to the board, but your post is certainly living up to your moniker.

Ex-players are generally among the worst in rules understanding and interpretation.

And, you know Cat is illegal how? Were you present in the rules clinics for umpires given by NCAA? Were you present when clarifications or other instructions were given to UICs or NCAA tournament umpires?

Games are called in real time, not with still photography or slow motion video.

There is no question that Cat's feet become airborne at times, and that sometimes she replants. The question is, is this illegal according to the NCAA? (Not according to a static reading of the book, but according to the book as interpreted by the NCAA clinicians, UICs, etc.)

BTW, you "nickname" for Cat demonstrates your bias. How is the weather in California?

Crow Hopping, Foot Dragging and More
 

For a good discussion of the rules on this topic,

http://www.pitchsoftball.com/Page3.html

Nicely put, Tom. I had thought of something else that wasn't NEARLY as nice.

There was quite a discussion of this whole thing with some of the folks involved in the WCWS over the past 2-3 years. I'm not a name dropper and I'm certainly not going to speak for them. However, I would encourage Nubie (and others) to pick the brains of some of these umpires.

For what it's worth, you can learn A LOT sitting around "out back" talking about plays, calls, etc. with other umpires, especially respected veterans who work at higher levels.

The game you improve may be your own!

I may be a newbee compared to you, of that you are correct, but with names like Cat Hopperman & A. Hopperwell, don't you think you guys should once & for all put a stop to the hop(leap) & call it???

Apparently, you are too interested in your opinion to stop and read what has been posted.

Umpires call what they are told to call, not take it upon themselves on what to call on any given day.

It is not unusual as certain tournaments to be told to only call the terribly obvious violations, or not call it at all. In others, depending on the host's wishes, the umpire may be asked to make sure they call every little thing.

I believe it was noted earlier that the NCAA wants the BU to concentrate on the runners as their priority. What does that tell you?

Besides, I wouldn't doubt if the leap was dropped from the book in the next year or so. The men have already done away with it and the women seem to want the same.

Apparently, YOU aren't listening & following the RULES... I can & do read do you read the rule book? As you freely admit, Leaping/hopping are still, at this time, against the rules & until the powers that be make it legal, blue, you should call it & bring a little credability back to the game of softball, that's all I'm saying! Why does it seem we're picking & choosing the rules we're going to follow & not following the rules as they presently stand? Girlie ball!?Untilyou step up to the plate & call the infractions of hopping & leaping, the Cat Hopperman & A. Hopperwell jokes will continue! What a joke!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nubie
[B]Apparently, YOU aren't listening & following the RULES... I can & do read do you read the rule book? As you freely admit, Leaping/hopping are still, at this time, against the rules & until the powers that be make it legal, blue, you should call it & bring a little credability back to the game of softball, that's all I'm saying! Why does it seem we're picking & choosing the rules we're going to follow & not following the rules as they presently stand? Girlie ball!?Untilyou step up to the plate & call the infractions of hopping & leaping, the Cat Hopperman & A. Hopperwell jokes will continue! What a joke!



Have you ever worked a game? That seems to be a question that has gotten lost in here. If you have then please, pretty please with sugar on top tell me where I can see you work, because obviously you are better than Davis, Edds, Bark, and any number of people that have worked NCAA regional, super regional and College World Series'. I have seen those umpires work and the three that I have mentioned are probably the 3 best I have ever seen, and obviously you are head and shoulders better than them.
I am sure that every member of the ASA National UIC staff have you on speed dial and they specifically request you to be on there staff for every National that they UIC. I know that Jeff Hansen has sent you countless invitations to work Regionals and WCWS's and you have probably just been to busy to accept any of them.

answer the ?
 

But sir, you all continue to refuse to answer the question; Like all the politician's do, ask a question or try to turn your shortcomings around on others. Simply stated, since crowhopping/leaping at present is illegal, why blue, do you refuse to call it, picking & choosing from tournament to tournament which rules will actually be called? Girley ball is what everyone calls it & frankly, it's embarrassing & degrading to the game of softball. Therefore, names like Hopperman & hopperwell will continue until you all have the guts to call a game by all the rules until such time that the rules are actually changed. Thank you & this isn't about me & what I want, it's about the game of softball!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jstark23
[B]

and sir my point is lost on you, you spout the hyperbole of calling everything in the rule book, so therefore I issue a challenge to you. I happen to live in Austin, fly in I'll pick you up at the airport and you can stay at my house, I will break out the bar b que pit and we'll break out the finest brown bottles available... then the next day we'll go over to McCombs and I will set it up with Connie Clark, and you and I will work a live intrasquad, and then tell me from field level definatively that Osterrman hops... now remember that it will be live with no cameras focused on the feet, no frame by frame replays then come back here and say that YES, CAT OSTERRMAN DEFINATELY HOPS, LEAPS, DOESN'T BRING HER HANDS TOGETHER FOR 1 SECOND, OR ANY OTHER INFRACTION THAT YOU CAN FIND. You can email me with your flight reservations through the site

Nubie can you hear me?
Can you feel me near you?

Nubie can you feel me?
Can I help to cheer you.

Ooo, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie
Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie
Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie, Nubie...


Like it or not, you asked a question and received many answers for which you did not care as they did not fit your tenet.

Did you notice the overwhelming consensus? Did you notice that we even attempted to explain to you why certain things did not happen that you believe should have? Did you notice the more you continued to argue and accuse us of lacking integrity, the patience started wearing thin?

Great, you opened and read the rule book. Big deal, we all do that and probably much more than you. We also scour the case books, attend clinics, schools and seminars and I'm not just talking about those conducted by the local association.

Many of us have friends who are the same people you are degrading through your posts. We have worked slews of tournaments, local, regional, national and some international (World Cup). We know what goes on behind the scenes. Are some rules overlooked? No, but they are prioritized and in the upper levels of softball, the IP is not a high priority.

BTW, please understand that as an umpire, we are simply slaves to the game. It is not OUR game, nor are we responsible for it's integrity. The proprietors of the game and it's condition are those for whom we perform our duties. Since we are not paying them to play the game for us to officiate, but they a paying us to officiate the game they play, I would think that makes it THEIR game.

I'm sure everyone who has responded hopes you will advance in the umpiring ranks and work you way up the ladder. That's something that is borne in this community of ours.

I am probably one of the most anal people in the world when it comes to rules. Don't believe me, ask the people on this board. I am also aware of how to umpire at all levels. There is no doubt that you learn the rules and mechanics. However, you also need to listen to those who have been there, those who can get you there, and those who are there. It can only help your umpiring career.

Good luck,

IMafia, Yes, I can see you, hear you, loud & clear & smell you, & it smells like a rat! I thank you for what was a semblance of an answer, well sort of! I get now what you guys do! You are told by whomever is running the tournament which rules you are to call for that tournament, so that their team of choice wins, huh? Is that how it works? Sometimes you call leaving the base early, or interferance or blocking the base, other times you don't? OH! Thanks for the clarification!

Quit feedin' it!
 

But 37 more days and this thread will have been active for a year!!!

Well, lets keep it going, then!

Re: Quit feedin' it!
 

Nice picture, but this particular troll is kind of fun!

Hey, nubie,

So, your interpretation of the situation is that every umpire at the upper levels is cowardly, and every tournament director (up to and including the NCAA championship tournament) is cooking the rules to set up a particular team as the winner.

Hmmm... How'd that actually work out for Texas so far?

BTW, you never answered my question... How's the weather in California?

Re: Quit feedin' it!
 

SRW,
Is that from your personal collection?

:)

Tom - I was thinking the same thing...but I would have asked about the weather in Nebraska! :D

The thought did occur to me... ;)

The discussion is certainly similar, but he didn't reference how his daughter's high school team was screwed by these umpires. Or, how only he had the morals to teach only legality. Besides, that particular person is too full of his own self-importance to select such a self-deprecating screen name.

Re: Re: Quit feedin' it!
 

*...don't take the bait, SRW... don't take the bait...*

FUBLUE said: "Worked a Men's state tournament (D level, so no national) and the UIC made this statement: "There will be no illegal pitches thrown this weekend." When asked what he meant, he said, "there will be no illegal pitches thrown this weekend." Enough Said. (I called none...because I saw none, right!)"

Of course, that must only refer to subtle, 'low priority' illegalities like leaping and hopping in women's FP. Surely blue would have to ignore the UIC and the wishes of the league or tournament director and call IP for sidearm deliveries. What does blue do when he receives this edict from UIC, but persistent and blatant IPs give one team a very obvious advantage over the other? How do you respond to the coach when he questions the IPs and the lack of calls? Do you tell him the truth and say that you recognize the pitch was illegal but your UIC instructed you to ignore it? Do you tell them it's a "low priority" and therefore below some illegality 'threshold'? Do the coaches know in advance, via a pretournament coaches meeting, that these calls won't be made? Could one of you knowledgeable guys explain how this works from begining to end?

calling the hop
 

FINALLY, someone with reason, bell!!!
Thank you!
NOW, will someone please answer the question???

Re: calling the hop
 

Exactly... so, how IS the weather in California?

Re: Re: calling the hop
 

Dak, Weather in Ca's great, of course; didn't think that needed an answer, isn't the weather ALWAYS great in Ca? NOW, will YOU answer the ?: why won't the umps call the illegal pitches, leaping/hopping( because tournament directors tell umps what to call sounds like hired guns & a real shame, if true!?) & finally bring this "year long topic?" to a close, or it'll go on forever, as will the hopper problem, due in part, to you, blue!!! Take a stand & Stop the Hop!

Nubie, take a deep breath and relax...you're starting to sound like the guy that sits around the house wearing a tin-foil hat with all the blinds drawn.

The broader issues here are not only about trust (on the part of coaches, players) and integrity (on the part of umps, organizers and officials), but fairness. There are some rules of any game or sport that can be ignored, given low 'priority', etc. that, by doing so, favors neither team. I didn't write the rulebook, but many of us assume that the IP rules were written to prevent an unfair advantage for a pitcher and her team over another. This should NEVER be allowed. If governing bodies don't like the rule, remove it...all the girls can be retrained to leap five feet in the air and whip the ball side arm...let the batters learn to deal with it...I don't care. But the bottom line is (or, rather, should be)---if its still in the book, enforce it. Any other approach to calling the game is a slippery slope...what will blue do when the UIC hints, for example, that "there will be no IPs AND no 'look back ' rule violations in this tournaments"? Where does it stop?

(I know, I know...I'm being naive...in the real world lots of rules are ignored...how many cops ticket jaywalkers these days, even though that particular rule is still in the books).

Just my 2 cents. Don't ask me how the weather is here (I'm in Buffalo, not CA!)

Yes, you are. Also uninformed about how sports officiating actually works.

The rule book is not holy writ. Otherwise, there would not be POEs, Case Books, Umpire Manuals, etc.

How many league games do you officiate where the rule book is strictly followed?

I can give you the answer for me: None.

There are <u>nearly always</u> adjustments to the rules. Sometimes these adjustments are written down. Sometimes they are conveyed by the UIC at umpire meetings. Sometimes they are conveyed to the umpires at pre-season clinics or training school. But, they are nearly always there.

The other aspect of how sports officiating works that you do not understand is that umpires are NOT the high priests of the game whose job is to enforce the rules as written by the sanctioning body in the official book.

Is that a surprise? My guess either it is, or you like to rail against it.

The umpire's job is to call the game according to the instructions / priorities of the people putting on the game. In almost all cases, the "people putting on the game" are represented to the umpiring crew by the UIC or the tournament director. In almost all cases, one or both of these individuals will instruct the umpires how the games will be called in this particular event. Umpires who willfully ignore that instruction are not operating with integrity and are not doing their job.

Is that a surprise to you? Again, my guess either it is, or you like to rail against it.

Re: Re: Re: calling the hop
 

Nubie, I have give you an opportunity to come help us stop the hop, I guess you are still working on the plane reservations

Thanks Tom...sadly, most of what you said IS a surprise to me and probably a lot of others that coach at lower level travelball or rec ball. I'll just have to get my mind around the concept that the rules aren't really rules, per se, but just sort of a guideline that can sort of followed, or not, depending on how the organizers want their organization or tournament to 'feel'.

So, here's my question (I'm not trying to be confrontational...I just want to understand the process):

At the higher levels of FP are the coaches informed beforehand as to what rules are to be ignored or given 'low priority'? How do you handle a coach that says "sheesh, at the last tournament you guys were callin' that one...how come you're not callin' it now?".

Thanks.

It's 47 and partly cloudy.

The umpire's response to this, or any other question concerning particular directions given to the umpires should be:

I'm sorry, Sir/Ma'am. You will need to direct that question to the UIC/TD.

Thank you.

At the upper levels, most of this actually originates with the coaches. JMO.

Thanks Mike, your brief but always to-the-point answers are greatly appreciated. While I admire your integrity and loyalty as an employee, I'm still not a big fan of the 'rules du jour' concept in any sport, especially if it results in an unfair competitive advantage (it feels like we keep losing sight of this concept).

To those who think the IP should be strictly called by the book...

How about 10U league play? Call 'em all?

Oh, THAT'S different!

Really? Why?

Our 10U league play games have a 75 minute time limit. Were we to call all IP's, the home team wouldn't ever get a chance to bat!

JEL: In a lot of organizations there are different rules for different age levels (size of ball, pitching distance, stealing/no stealing, can't steal home, etc.). If the IP rules are unworkable at 10U, modify or delete the rule. No big deal.

My gripe (I'm NOT railing, though) is the uneven application of existing rules at upper levels of play, decided not by umps or even by the UIC (as I learned today) but by tournament directors or league officials that apparently know better than those folks that spend many hours working and reworking rules and POEs so that the game is played as fairly as achievable.

Where did anyone say there was an "uneven application"?
Don't read things into a post that are not there.

Do you think a coach at a college showcase wants to sit there an watch umpire's call girls illegal all day? The coaches know what they are looking for in a pitcher and they know if they are illegal or not.

This is just one of many different circumstances where umpires may be given instructions contrary to the Championship Play rules.

rules du jour
 

Now, bell, that's callin a spade a spade! Rules du jour!! What a laugh!! Umps being told at the start of EACH tournament which rules are to be enforced & which ones will be ignored, by the tournament director, so certain teams are at an advantage, that's how it goes? WOW!!!Makes softball a legit sport I see guys! You guys are laughable & diggin yourselves deeper & deeper, makin you guys look bad! Yea, let's even then turn the subject to t-ball, 10U?, instead of 18U/college ball so we can talk in circles again!

Where is that special gif
 

Can somebody PLEASE get Mick's dead horse on here...

Sorry...I wasn't restricting myself to just the posts, but was referring to experience and observation. I've coached and seen 16U qualifiers where IPs were called as they occurred, and others, in the same season, where IPs were never called (I assume, now, by order of the organizers of each particular tournament). That's my definition of uneven application.

This is way off topic, but it still amazes me that at D1 NCAA level there are so many girls with bad pitching/throwing mechanics. My DD (who had not-so-great throwing mechanics) has retired from softball and moved on to rugby...where the rules, by rule, are not immediately applied by the ref unless the violation reverses the advantage in play...otherwise it's PLAY ON.

Just because some Chevys are cars does not mean that all cars are Chevys nor that all Chevys are cars.

The renewal of this thread (which started, by the way, as a joke) was mainly about NCAA Div 1 pitching and application of the NCAA pitching rules by umpires.

Just because some tournaments (or overall organizations, such as NCAA) make unwritten adjustments to the rules regarding leaping does not mean than everytime you see a leap not called that the umpire was so instructed.

Sometimes poor or inconsistent umpiring is just that - poor or inconsistent umpiring.

I would venture, however, that the umpire crews in the NCAA national tournament were calling the IP pretty much exactly the way they have been instructed to call it.

Noob, you can call names all you want, but when was the last time you saw an NCAA Div 1 coach complain about a leap not being called?

Just because YOU are not part of the "in crowd" that knows how the rules are being applied at the NCAA Div 1 level does not mean the coaches there are not seeing the game called just as they expect it to be called, by and large.

It is very common for the written rules to be adjusted based on league, age category, tournament, etc. It happens ALL THE TIME, and umpires are expected to call the game as instructed. A well-run tournament will have coach's packets that will outline most of this; some will be communicated verbally; and some will be communicated by experience with the tournament and the level of play.

If you think the NCAA interpretation of their IP rules is having a bad influence on the game, take that up with the NCAA. It is not an umpire problem.

And, Noob, if you thing that Cat O is by herself in taking advantage of the NCAA IP rule interpretation, you have not been watching many games. Or, you have been watching them with resentment of burnt orange seared into your retinas.

I am glad that somebody can understand his gibberish. ;)

Scott,

I can read it. I even thought I understood it, but appareantly not. OTOH, What do I know about softball and the rules.

I'm done with this one.

Re: Where is that special gif
 

This one?

http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/deadhorse.gif

Yes, that one
 

Nice job, SRW. I will put in a good word with the UIC on your behalf

Re: Yes, that one
 

Good. Thank you. Make sure you find out which rules he wants me to enforce, too.



;)

Re: Re: Yes, that one
 

I think next year we are going to focus on abstraction.

You know, I find it kind of odd that a post that was begun as a joke amongst friends has turned into not only one of the longest, but oldest active threads on this board.

Go figure!

I hear you.

Buncha killjoys (j/k)

Scott, you're right in your previous post. It did have a rather innocent beginning...

NOOOOOOOO Don't kill this thread. I am now hooked. I have to log on as soon as I come home every evening just to see what has been written. Pleaseeee. This is Jerry Springer for umps.

Scott, I am not calling in McKinney this weekend, but will have a booth set up at the main complex to sell stuff. Stop by and say hi.

I will be in So Cal next weekend for the Bat Busters college look. Anybody else be there? Find me and say hello

rules du jour
 

DNT, Please let us know which rules they/umps are told to follow at THAT showcase, rules du jour, that is just too funny!! Let us know, too, how many hoppers/leapers are there, which states are the biggest offenders, & how many college coaches actually want a hopper so they can spend countless hours trying to break them of the bad habit! It'll be interesting, thanks!

Well, noob, since you have contributed nothing of substance to this thread for quite awhile (and that is giving you tremendous benefit of the doubt), here is the first ever award of the
http://eteamz.active.com/softballump...es/trollof.jpg

I know you've already had a similar award, but now it is official!

Congratulations!

I am assuming, by the term "main complex," you are referring to CR. I will be down the road a ways at Community with TH and JB of NMUA. If I get out at a decent hour on Saturday, I will swing by.

How to Stop????
 

Hi,

I am trying to stop the automatic receipt of e-mails concerning this inane thread. I have changed my profile regarding this option but the e-mails still keep coming. I have tried to contact an administrator (at [email protected]) but my messages bounce back. How do I stop the e-mails??

As an aside, I registered at this site with the hope of learning more about softball rules. I did not expect it to be overtaken by a group of individuals who only want to see their messages "in print", messages devoid of information or insight. I am surprised by the juvenile responses. I have seen juvenile umpires before - I just didn't anticipate that so many would be using this site.

Re: How to Stop????
 

FAQ Page

Some threads are just for fun. There is quite a bit of useful information in this thread, but a lot of it is just needling the troll, so if you consider that inane, fine (you're right, BTW, but just an observation... try lightening up... it's way more fun) ;)

How to de-register??
 

I had turned off the e-mail notification in my profile, and I in my message I just sent. It hasn't stopped the e-mails.

How do I de-register?

I think you need to edit your original post where you turned it on.

I never turn on email notification with web boards because I agree with you - it is very annoying.

Apparently, this web board allows you to set the default in your profile to turn it on, but turning the default off does not turn off your email notification for any thread where you used the posting option of clicking the email notify box.

Edit your post where you posted the link to that pitching coach's web site and click off "email notification."

That should do it.

[Edited by Dakota on Nov 10th, 2005 at 10:44 AM]

Nice editing, Dakota! Have another!
 

Re: How to Stop????
 

As Tom has noted, there is a lot of useful information on this site. We all have learned from each other over the years, and hopefully will continue to. Hopefully, you, too, will stay on board. This is one of the best boards for gleaning information from fellow umpires.

However, even the best boards have their trolls. And sometimes, well, it is like watching a car wreck. You just can't keep yourself from looking, no matter how gruesome things may get.

DNT, Please let us know which rules they/umps are told to follow at THAT showcase, rules du jour, that is just too funny!! Let us know, too, how many hoppers/leapers are there, which states are the biggest offenders, & how many college coaches actually want a hopper so they can spend countless hours trying to break them of the bad habit! It'll be interesting, thanks

Why wouldn't a coach recruit a leaper or hopper? They obviously don't have to worry about it being called at the college leve. Why should the college coaches spend countless hours trying to break them of the bad habit. You have already said no college ump calls IP anyway. Why spend all that precious practice time to correct something that will not be called. I am sure the coaches have better things to do with practice time (like teaching their runners to leave the base early)

Re: How to de-register??
 

then,

Well, shucks, if that be your final say so on the matter, just block the doggoned thang on your own email program. The rest of usn's out heah are going to keep on trying to get edumacated every chance we can.

We aren't finished with this one, are we??? :D

One more month to the one year anniversary! Since our troll seems to have dropped out, we need to think up some more foolishness to keep it going, doncha think?

Is it proper to call a pitcher for leaping when it's Leap Year? Wouldn't the fact that it is Leap Year make leaping legal?

How about a new rule that leaping is leagal only in odd #'d leap years.

How about they just make it legal, period! But, until then, you guys call it, can you handle that?