Another ASA What's the Call?

[Gulf Coast Blue]

EDITED FOR CLARITY

Trying to continue a little of the great stuff that Mike started.

Here is another........

Runners on 1st and 3rd with one out. B3 doubles but misses 1st and runner on 1st misses 2nd base when going to 3rd......runner on 3rd scores as runner from 1st advances to 3rd base.

Defense appeals:


(a) BR missed 1st base first and then appeals runner on 3rd missed 2nd

(b) runner on 3rd for missing 2nd base first and then the BR missed 1st.

In either case, does the run score??

Joel

[Edited by Gulf Coast Blue on Jan 27th, 2001 at 04:26 PM]

[Steve M]

Since baseball's minor league umps may now wear shades, I'll use this icon to pay homage.

A smart aleck answer would be just a plain 'yes, in one of these instances the run does score.' But since I've never been known as a smart aleck type, I'll answer with this. Run scores in example A but not in B when speaking ASA. But rather than explain why, I'll hold off and see what else gets posted to justify or refute this.

[IRISHMAFIA]

No run scores regardless of the order of appeal.

[kchamp]

Since in both cases the third out is a force out, the run should not count.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

OK.....

In situation (a) the second appeal is no longer a force (but a time play) and the run would score as R1 crossed the plate prior to the appeal.

In (b), when appealing 2B and then 1B, both are force plays and the run would not score.

See ASA rules 5-5-B and 8-5-A.

Taken from ASA casebook play 5.5-14

Joel

[IRISHMAFIA]

Joel,

You got me on this one, but I do not understand where 8.5.A come into play since no runner ever obtain an exempt status.

However, a better reference should be POE #1.J Force Outs. The Note reads, "If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would elminiate all force outs."

I don't particularly care for the ruling, but thems the rules and that's what I'll call!

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Well if nothing else Mike....it makes some of the rest of us not feel so bad when we kick some calls.....(grin)

You are right on the note on 8-5-A and the POE on Appeals (j). That may be one to note to the Casebook publishers to make a correction on.

Joel

[Roger Greene]

Small point, Joel, but putting the batter-runner out at first base is not a "force out".

I'm not sure about ASA rule cite, but the proper ruling in FED is 9-1 Exception
"A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:
a. by the batter-runner before touching first base;
b. by another runner being forced out;
c. ......"

The definition of a force play is "a play in which a runner loses the right to the base occupied and is forced to advance because the batter becomes a batter-runner
...."(Fed 2-12-4). This can never apply to the batter-runner who may be put out "if ... after a fair hit, any fielder ,while holding the ball securely in a hand, touches first base or touches first base with the ball before the batter-runner touches first base." (Fed 8-4-1e.)

This play is one I need to make sure is gone over in our Fed association meeting, as some of these guys will not be familar with the appeal process.

Thanks,
Roger Greene,
Member UT

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Good point Roger on going over it in your FED associations. Most (if not All) of our association umpires call ASA ball and are familiar with proper appeals....

Joel