Starting on the orange base

[Dakota]

Fall ball; 14U (meaning these kids were 12U in the summer). ASA rules.

Serg's story under the "It's in the book" thread...

Originally posted by VaASAump
"But blue, what reason would he have for missing the bag when he's the fastest runner out here??"

Hmmmmm.......Interesting question?

reminded me of the response I got yesterday. But the reason for the post is because I've been questioning myself if I did this right.

BR gets on base. As she is waiting on the pitch, and getting ready to take her lead off / steal, she has positioned herself with her left foot on the orange base and her right foot behind her. I notice this, but don't make a call until the pitcher has delivered the pitch. Then, similar in timing to a leaving early call, I call "NO PITCH - RUNNER IS OUT."

I explain the call to the coach. He looks at me like I'm from Mars, but doesn't really argue. I thought he understood the call, though, but maybe not...

It's a violation of ASA 8-7-S and 8-2-M-4. Pretty clear to me.

Next game, same team against a new opponent, same player gets on base, does the same thing, same call.

After the same explanation, coach asks, "But what advantage is there for her being behind the base?" Good question, coach.

After this second call, I went to the 1st base coach and told him he could be helping out his runners if he would pay attention to make sure they were in contact with the white base. I observed him correcting his runners a couple of times after that.

Anyway, I recall there being a discussion (I think on this board, but I'm not sure) about this not being a call that should be made, or something that should be handled with "preventative umpiring" instead of a call.

Should I have made this call or maybe just told the 1st base coach to keep his runners on the base?

[scottk_61]

This question has come up before and I have to admit I was confused the Henry Pollard took the same view as the coach in your situation.
He said let it go,
I still tell the coarch to get them in contact with the white bag.

I really don't know what ASA wants now, maybe we shold email Craig Cress to see.

Scott

[CecilOne]

Let's hope they want what is in the book, otherwise we have anarchy and we have more than enough inconsistency already. By the book, the runner must be in contact with the base once the runner stops there, pitch or no pitch. The out calls were correct. BUT, the best umpiring is preventive, tell the runner to get on the base just as you would after a time out or foul ball when the runner has started toward 2nd. Treat the safety base as non-existent.

[Edited by CecilOne on Sep 20th, 2004 at 03:35 PM]

[JEL]

"What advantage is there for her being behind the base?"

She can gain more forward momentum if she correctly times the pitch I would think. Maybe there is a slight advantage there.

"Treat the safety base as non-exsistent"

Thats what I've always been told in clinics. Once 1B is attained by BR, the orange base disappears.

I must agree with CecilOne, just tell the runner to get on the base.

[Steve M]

I agree that the momentum to be gained is the advantage. Without the orange base, we don't allow a runner to start 1 stride behind First - so there's no reason to allow them to start behind the (white) base when we do have an orange base.

In fall ball, I'd probably tell the base coach one time, then call the out afterward. That gives the coach the chance to fix the violation. When it recurs, call the out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I've seen it and called it. There is nothing wrong with making that call as it does give the player a running start.

Yes, a little preventive umpiring can help here, but not repeatedly.

"Coach, get your runner on the bag". Give them a chance to figure this out. If they fail to comply, call the runner out in accordance with the rule which does not note where the runner is, but just not in contact with the base.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Shouldn't this call be made as soon as the pitcher has control of the ball and is in the circle - don't wait until a pitch is made. The runner must be on the base at the time of the pitch.

"Hey! You've got to start on the white base."

Sounds like what you had was dead ball, runner is out for being off base too soon, NO PITCH.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Shouldn't this call be made as soon as the pitcher has control of the ball and is in the circle - don't wait until a pitch is made...

Perhaps, but the note in ASA 8-2-M-4 says,

NOTE: If the runner returns to the colored portion only and remains there until the pitched ball is released, no pitch is called and the runner is out.

This note was added with the 2004 rule changes.

I agree with Mike (IrishMafia). In fall ball (around these parts, this is instructional league), I will use preventative officiating. But like Mike said, not repeatedly. Trust me, just like all other calls, once you call it, coach will correct it (and so will the ball players). Now, in tournament/spring season, then I will call it.

Serg

[whiskers_ump]

Made this call last nite in HS fall ball. Runner was
taking lead from orange portion. Both coaches agreed
with the call and in turn, told their players the way
that they should be positioning themselves.

However, in an ASA State tournament four years agao, had
the UIC tell me to not ever make that call - again. He
said it was a cheap out and he would not allow it on his
fields. (George Staddard (spelling)

No Mike, I did not ask him when he purchased the fields.
LOL

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Made this call last nite in HS fall ball. Runner was
taking lead from orange portion. Both coaches agreed
with the call and in turn, told their players the way
that they should be positioning themselves.

However, in an ASA State tournament four years agao, had
the UIC tell me to not ever make that call - again. He
said it was a cheap out and he would not allow it on his
fields. (George Staddard (spelling)

No Mike, I did not ask him when he purchased the fields.
LOL

I'm sort of curious as to how the protest would be handled in such a situation.

As the umpire, I'm not going to lie to the coach. I'm going to tell him straight up that I was directed to ignore that rule.

This would give the manager legal recourse to file a protest as this is obviously not a judgment call.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

I'm sort of curious as to how the protest would be handled in such a situation.

As the umpire, I'm not going to lie to the coach. I'm going to tell him straight up that I was directed to ignore that rule.

This would give the manager legal recourse to file a protest as this is obviously not a judgment call.

Yeppers, just like we were doing in the AFA Nationals.
"Coach, I know she is illegal. I am not allowed to call it."

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
He said it was a cheap out...

"Aw, Blue, you're just trying to look for outs!"

"Umm... yep Coach, that's why I'm here."