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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 12:15pm
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Well...if a runner leaves early the correct call is "no pitch" and then an out on the runner. Therefore, it stands to reason that with a no pitch being called, you can't have an illegal pitch.
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Scott It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to have to paint it. 
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 12:24pm
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If runner leaves before the illegal act, that would be an out. If runner leaves before release of ball, but after the illegal act then you have the illegal pitch.
At least that sounds logical to me! We discussed this in a HS clinic recently. Consensus was, get the out if at all possible.
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 12:27pm
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Looking for excuses because you screwed up?
How can you watch the pitcher and the runner leaving early? Are they both your responsibility? How can you see both happening? Come on blue, get in the game!  NOTE: For those of you who don't know, I was the PU in this game. BTW: IP is a delayed dead ball...let play happen. Leaving early is immediate dead ball. My question in a scenario: IP called by 1BU for breaking contact with pitching plate..stepping forward, let's say. Runner leaves before pitch is released. What takes precident...the illegal act by the offense or the illegal act by the defense.
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 12:33pm
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Then we can penalize the former. mick
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 01:06pm
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My thought
I'm going to have to go with the offense. Like Skahtboi stated if the runner leaves BEFORE the pitch then the PITCH has not yet occured so you can have no Illegal pitch. The book says the pitch STARTS at the seperation of the hands, the pitch itself has not occured until the RELEASE of the pitch.
Now for FUBLUE's part, no I did not screw up. ME, no way. Even though the coach wanted a leaving early the runner had not committed such a crime. So therefore only the illegal pitch is called. I am simply adding some thoughts to this scenerio so as to LEARN, LEARN, LEARN !!! :-) If we can add all these "what if's" now it's less likely we can be surprised by them later. Correct ? And with some of the situations we see thru the course of our travels it is wise that we know as much as we possible can !
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 01:14pm
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You need to repay me for that Ice Cold Beverage I purchased for you since you THOUGHT I screwed up an award. Page 111 Section 8-b-1 If the batter does not reach first base safely or if any runner fails to advance at least one base, the coach of the offensive team may choose to take the result of the play OR the standard Illegal Pitch effect which is that a ball is awarded to the batter and each runner advances one base. I was right....I'm now pissed off now that I let you, Ms. Kellerump and our Boss convice me I was wrong!!!!! Given all of that, I think if the IP occurs BEFORE leaving early, then we enforce the delayed dead ball. If they leave early BEFORE the IP then Dead Ball Out since no pitch occurs. I am going to check on that with the Rules Interp people though.
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We Don't Look for Problems.....They find Us.
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 01:24pm
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Quote:
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 01:44pm
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Speaking ASA.
Here is my opinion... If the pitching infraction happened before the runner left early, then it is a DDB. Once the runner leaves early, it is a DB, play over. However, since not all runners advanced one base safely on the IP/DDB, the offense gets the choice. I assume they will take the enforcement of the IP rather than the result of the play. However, to survive enforcement of the IP after the BU called DP/no pitch, the DDB signal had better been already "out there" or you're going to have a defensive coach convinced he got jobbed. If the leaving early happened first, the IP never happened ('cause of the DB/no pitch).
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Tom
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 03:28pm
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Intertesting.....
How can you break down a rule violation to BEFORE the wrong doing or AFTER the infraction when the infraction itself is call illegal PITCH. And like I said earlier a PITCH has nor occured until the RELEASE of the ball and unless I'm wrong about the only thing a pitcher can do AFTER releasing the ball to CREATE an illegal pitch is to continue her rotation of her arm. Correct ? Incorrect? Leaving early is self explaining...She left EARLY or BEFORE the pitch. PS Kellerump, ck your billing, I paid for not only my beverage but one of yours ! I didn't say anything because the waiter already had been having a bad night up to that point! :-) PS you can make it up to me this week-end !
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 04:16pm
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I suppose it may depend on the nature of the IP, but the following infractions, resulting in an IP call, do not require the hands to separate:
1) Foreign substance on the ball 2) Taking a position on the plate without the ball 3) Keeping both feet in contact with the plate In addition, infractions such as a leap, stopping, reversing, etc., are made before the runner may legally leave the base. Once the umpire signals the infraction (whatever it is) the call has been made. I can't find anywhere in the book where it states that a leaving early violation takes precedence over an IP, so therefore the offense keeps their option of enforcing the penalty or the results of the play.
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Tom
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 04:37pm
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Just as a quick thought on this, anytime that interference and obstruction happen on the same play, the interference overrides the obstruction, and its sort of the same here obstruction= dbb, IP=dbb, int= automatic db runner out, leaving early= automatic db runner out... I'm not sure that this analogy really applies, but I'm not sure that it doesn't either
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 05:12pm
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Other things that could be an IP, taking the sign off the pitching plate. Or stepping onto the plate with the hands together. You could have a girl step on the plate with hands together and pitch while you are signalling IP, and the runner gets off base prior to release. I agree since the book doesn't specify any precedence as it does in the interference ruling over OBS then I think we step through the penalties as others have described, IP then leave early-choice to offense (IP enforced if coach is not stupid!) if leaving early happened first then nothing happened after that to worry about as it is a dead ball as soon as they leave early! And Jstark I think the difference is that the book says specifically that the INT overrules the OBS, that is not the case in this item.
And Kellerumps before you go making someone try to believe a rule quote, are you sure you are reading the right book??? I couldn't help it, there was a lot of fun loving jabs in this thread, I had to take my turn!!
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 08:08pm
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Re: Intertesting.....
Quote:
At the point the runner leaves the base early, it is a dead ball. Anything the pitcher does after that does not matter. If the pitcher did anything prior to that that was illegal, I think the rule book(s) state that a pitch is illegal at the point the infraction occurs, not when the ball is delivered.
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Dan
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Mon Sep 13, 2004, 08:48pm
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"Other things that could be an IP, taking the sign off the pitching plate. Or stepping onto the plate with the hands together. You could have a girl step on the plate with hands together and pitch while you are signalling IP, and the runner gets off base prior to release."
Taking the sign off the pitching plate is NOT an illegal pitch, and is not noted as one in any softball rules; pitcher is only required to either take a signal or simulate taking a signal by pausing with hands separated. Pitcher can take a signal anywhere, and anytime without that being an illegal pitch. This is a softball urban legend that belongs in the "it's in the book" thread, started by our baseball brethren (where it IS illegal). Stepping on the pitching plate with the hands together is also NOT an illegal pitch, until the hands ARE separated. Up to that point, the pitcher can realize that the preliminary action is in error, and legally back off the plate to avoid the illegal pitch. Some actions by the pitcher become illegal at some specific point in time, and it can be preliminary to the actual release, or simultaneous with the release. If preliminary to the release, I also believe the delayed dead ball would still allow the offense to accept the penalty for the illegal pitch; if simultaneous with the release, then the leaving base early occurred first, and thus "no pitch".
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